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#1 2006-08-27 13:19:52

cronodragon
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Registered: 2006-08-27
Posts: 6

Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

A dark discussions forum, great, I was looking for this.

Ok, my question is what would happen if someone mathematically proofs the birth (or creation, order) and death (or destruction, chaos) of every single thing in the universe, be it real or ideal. What do you thing about it? What would happen to that person, to the people in this world, and the future of humanity?

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#2 2006-08-27 13:35:55

Ricky
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Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

That isn't really a "what if" question.  We know the universe is constantly expanding, and in fact speeding up it's exapansion.  So by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, the energy in any one place will overall decrease as it expands.  So in trillions of years, there will be almost no energy anywhere.  No energy, no life.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

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#3 2006-08-27 14:07:37

cronodragon
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Registered: 2006-08-27
Posts: 6

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

Well, there was a long discussion about that, because it was possible that the universe was expanding or compressing. The reason we know it is permanently expanding is because of the study of the mass of the universe, not because of the law of thermodinamics. And anyway, the law of thermodinamics doesn't apply to ideal objects... would you apply thermodinamics to numbers, to family relations, to feelings, etc?

So what would happen if there be some "law of thermodynamics", but one that applies to both physical and metaphysical?

Last edited by cronodragon (2006-08-27 14:09:07)

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#4 2006-08-27 14:36:35

Ricky
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Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

And anyway, the law of thermodinamics doesn't apply to ideal objects... would you apply thermodinamics to numbers, to family relations, to feelings, etc?

Would said objects really "exist" if we didn't?

And I believe you misread my first post.  Thermodynamics is the reason why the energy in any proper subset of the universe would approach 0.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

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#5 2006-08-27 17:52:44

cronodragon
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Registered: 2006-08-27
Posts: 6

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

Ricky wrote:

And anyway, the law of thermodinamics doesn't apply to ideal objects... would you apply thermodinamics to numbers, to family relations, to feelings, etc?

Would said objects really "exist" if we didn't?

Maybe yes, maybe not, how could we proof a solution for that?

Ricky wrote:

And I believe you misread my first post.  Thermodynamics is the reason why the energy in any proper subset of the universe would approach 0.

Well, I just wanted to keep my question. You are sending my question a trillion of years in the future, and I can't wait so much to know what would happen if in a near time someone proofs (not only thinks that there could be a solution like thermodynamics) that birth and death of everything is based on logic?

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#6 2006-08-28 00:27:49

Ricky
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Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

Well, the question you ask just does not make sense.  First off, everything is not born, and everything does not die.  If you wish to change the definitions of birth and death, then you can make it so, but again, that ain't birth or death.

Second, is that you are asking for mathimatical proof for something that is not math.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

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#7 2006-08-28 02:25:57

cronodragon
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Registered: 2006-08-27
Posts: 6

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

Ok, that's what I wanted to know.

On the other hand, returning to thermodynamics, it could be possible that in half a trillion of years we realize that it is possible to travel back in time, and go to a "nice" time.

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#8 2006-08-28 03:49:51

mathsyperson
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Registered: 2005-06-22
Posts: 4,900

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

Time travel doesn't work backwards like that.

Scientists are saying that it's theoretically possible to travel into the future by going through a wormhole, and to travel back to the time you came from by going through it the other way, but it's not possible to travel back in time unless you travelled forward first. If it was, we'd be seeing time machines from the future all over the place.


Why did the vector cross the road?
It wanted to be normal.

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#9 2006-08-28 03:54:56

cronodragon
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Registered: 2006-08-27
Posts: 6

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

Maybe those time machines are aware of the time travel paradoxes... and on the other hand, maybe our time is not the "nice" time where they would like to be. Remember there still remains a trillion years to find it out.

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#10 2006-08-28 08:36:10

Ricky
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Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

Time travel is a violations of Thermodynamics anyways.  When you introduce new material to a closed system, it makes that system open, even though the system itself did not change.  Thus, the same principals don't apply.

As for traveling backwards in time, our current knowledge says that it is we don't know how to do it.  Not that it is impossible  Big difference.

To the argument that there would be time machines everywhere, it may be that time travel as such is possible, but humans were destroyed before making that discovery.  Or that we were moral enough to not use it.  Or that it is possible and they do travel, but they do so in ways to go undetected by us.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

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#11 2006-09-11 13:37:18

All_Is_Number
Member
Registered: 2006-07-10
Posts: 258

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

cronodragon wrote:

So what would happen if there be some "law of thermodynamics", but one that applies to both physical and metaphysical?

Perhaps you'll find this page interesting.

http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/chapters/s7042.html


You can shear a sheep many times but skin him only once.

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#12 2006-09-11 18:30:12

Zach
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Registered: 2005-03-23
Posts: 2,075

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

The wormhole theory is off-target. Wormholes aren't breaks in Space-Time (Star Trek~), but more like direct "shortcuts" within the universe between two points.

Time Travel is physically impossible with a positive weight, too.

Then there's always The Paradox. If you bo back in time, would you already have done it as it's already past or would you be crafting a new past, if so, where would the old past where you travelled from go to and would your memories be altered, which could alter them to force you into not making the time-trip and thus erasing the past?


Boy let me tell you what:
I bet you didn't know it, but I'm a fiddle player too.
And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.

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#13 2006-09-12 03:14:48

luca-deltodesco
Member
Registered: 2006-05-05
Posts: 1,470

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

Zach wrote:

Then there's always The Paradox. If you bo back in time, would you already have done it as it's already past or would you be crafting a new past, if so, where would the old past where you travelled from go to and would your memories be altered, which could alter them to force you into not making the time-trip and thus erasing the past?

which is where idea of multiplie universes comes in, when you go back in time, and change something, even just by being there, a new universe is started from that point, independant of the one you left. or something along those lines


The Beginning Of All Things To End.
The End Of All Things To Come.

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#14 2006-09-12 04:22:10

Zach
Member
Registered: 2005-03-23
Posts: 2,075

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

That's Realm Theory.


Boy let me tell you what:
I bet you didn't know it, but I'm a fiddle player too.
And if you'd care to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.

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#15 2006-10-11 03:52:30

Toast
Real Member
Registered: 2006-10-08
Posts: 1,321

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

I don't like the multiverse theory: it would be nice if our universe was unique. I think that a multiverse is a universe without a destiny, just a future with an infinite amount of outcomes. Bleh!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I know little about this subject and am mostly hypothesising:
The universe expands at the speed of light, right? Recent research has shown that over billions of years the speed of light has been gradually falling. Does this represent the declining rate of expansion of the universe? When the universe stops expanding, the speed of light has reached 0, and everything stops, temperature reaches absolute zero and time has no meaning. Unless, of course, gravity pulls everything back together, and the universe contracts at the speed of light, which gradually speeds up. This would mean that time would reverse, right? Wouldn't it be weird living in a world where time flows in reverse? Would we even notice it? You'd be born out of a coffin and die in a womb. Creepy.

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#16 2006-10-16 00:00:13

WiZaRd
Real Member
Registered: 2006-09-22
Posts: 570

Re: Mathematical proof of birth and dead of everything

Amaizing.....!!!


Be Happy!

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