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#26 2013-10-03 02:24:09

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

How are you accessing it on another machine?


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#27 2013-10-03 03:23:00

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

I am not. I was only considering a possibility


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

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#28 2013-10-03 03:25:25

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Without seeing the code of the generator or at least seeing the output how can it be done?


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#29 2013-10-03 03:42:07

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

OK, I'll use my own computer.

random.random() in python 2.7


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#30 2013-10-03 03:47:45

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Python uses a Mersenne Twister algorithm. It is completely deterministic but looking at the code there is a problem.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#31 2013-10-03 03:58:44

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

What is deterministic?

I know what it uses, but looking it up is against the rules of the challenge. Can we pretend that we do not know this funda?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#32 2013-10-03 04:06:19

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

deterministic - In computer science, a deterministic algorithm is an algorithm which, given a particular input, will always produce the same output.

The point is even though the above is true there is a random element to all generators. It is called the seed.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#33 2013-10-03 04:10:43

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

where does the seed come from? -_-


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#34 2013-10-03 04:11:59

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Usually from the internal clock but it can be user supplied. Without knowing it you will not know where in the sequence the rng is.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#35 2013-10-03 04:13:52

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Hmm

Give an example of a non-deterministic algorithm


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#36 2013-10-03 04:20:36

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Dave Clarke wrote:

Adding to math's answer, a nondeterministic algorithm is one that has multiple choices in some points during its control flow. The actual choice made when the program runs is not determined by the input or values in registers, or if we are talking about Turing machines, the choice is not determined by the input value and the state; instead an arbitrary choice among the possibilities can be made in a given run of the program. Thus multiple runs of the same algorithm on the same input can result in different outputs.

russian_roulette{

If rand(6) = 2 then print "dead" else print "whew!":

}

Same program produces different outputs.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#37 2013-10-03 04:24:34

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Oh!
else execute rm / -rf


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#38 2013-10-03 04:27:46

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

The period of the Mersenne twister is a number that is over 6000 digits long!


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#39 2013-10-03 04:47:11

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Is it possible to write an all powerful program that can crack *any* pseudorandomnumbergenerator by hook or by crook within finite time without needing any human being modifying it conciously?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#40 2013-10-03 04:51:54

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

I do not think so. Each generator is different, has different statistical properties.

Now when we talk about what prngs are used for that is a different story.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#41 2013-10-03 04:57:01

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Will that be possible if someone can convert bobbym's brain into a x86 program?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#42 2013-10-03 04:59:21

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

bobbym's brain would not fit in a thimble.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#43 2013-10-03 05:01:42

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

How much space would it take? I have a 1 TB external hard disk


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#44 2013-10-03 05:04:27

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

That guy's brain could easily fit inside of a cooked lentil.

http://www.mathisfunforum.com/viewtopic … 80#p265080

Post #17.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#45 2013-10-03 05:09:33

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Hmm, Will you answer a question?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#46 2013-10-03 05:12:48

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

The question of the hard drive?

I would suspect that bobbym's brain is full of lots of minutiae and would not fit on a 1TB drive.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#47 2013-10-03 05:17:36

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

I was about to ask how can you manage to find a thread so quickly which contains a conversation you're thinking of


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#48 2013-10-03 05:21:55

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

That is sometimes impossible. I have a good memory for those types of things.

The tool I use is the search.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#49 2013-10-03 05:25:12

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 14,998
Website

Re: Cracking PRNGs

What is sometimes impossible?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#50 2013-10-03 05:26:36

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 82,598

Re: Cracking PRNGs

Finding a thread. Unless you can remember specific words or phrases it is impossible.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

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