Discussion about math, puzzles, games and fun.   Useful symbols: ÷ × ½ √ ∞ ≠ ≤ ≥ ≈ ⇒ ± ∈ Δ θ ∴ ∑ ∫  π  -¹ ² ³ °

You are not logged in.

## #1 2012-08-24 19:44:32

Agnishom
Real Member
From: Riemann Sphere
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 24,769
Website

### pH = 0

I believe that there can't be any acid with its pH exactly equal to zero. It would mean the Hydrogen Activity to be ONE. But since I do not know what the definition of Hydrogen Activity is exactly.

Please suggest an way to explain it

'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.

Offline

## #2 2012-08-24 19:59:55

bobbym
bumpkin
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 109,606

### Re: pH = 0

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

## #3 2012-08-24 20:20:35

Agnishom
Real Member
From: Riemann Sphere
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 24,769
Website

### Re: pH = 0

So is it really really possible,
that an acid has 0 pH

'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.

Offline

## #4 2012-08-24 20:28:27

bobbym
bumpkin
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 109,606

### Re: pH = 0

Yes, I only thought a ph of 1 was possible. There are also super acids that are stronger than the big 3 ( HCl, HNO3, H2SO4).

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

## #5 2012-08-24 20:55:48

Agnishom
Real Member
From: Riemann Sphere
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 24,769
Website

### Re: pH = 0

But pH of HCl is 0, how can any acid be stronger?

'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.

Offline

## #6 2012-08-24 21:33:28

bobbym
bumpkin
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 109,606

### Re: pH = 0

Hi;

Ph is a bit more complicated than that. See if you like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superacid

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

## #7 2012-08-25 00:20:13

Agnishom
Real Member
From: Riemann Sphere
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 24,769
Website

### Re: pH = 0

Either it is difficult to understand or I cannot pay enough concentration

'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.

Offline

## #8 2012-08-25 02:26:13

bobbym
bumpkin
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 109,606

### Re: pH = 0

It is very difficult. Seems there are now a couple of acids that are a million times stronger than H2SO4.

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.
Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.

Offline

## #9 2012-08-25 06:06:31

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: Harlan's World
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 16,037

### Re: pH = 0

The strongest known superacid is fluoroantimonic acid which is 2 milliard times stronger than the 100% sulfuric acid.

Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.
Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most. ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment
The knowledge of some things as a function of age is a delta function.

Offline

## #10 2012-08-25 08:23:43

bob bundy
Moderator
Registered: 2010-06-20
Posts: 7,969

### Re: pH = 0

hi Agnishom

I did not know this, but my wife does.  She has a degree in chemistry!

The 1 - 14 introduction to pH is a simplification.

The proper definition for ph is minus log (concentration of hydrated hydrogen ions in moles per cubic decimetre).

The graph below shows in sketch form how the pH varies with concentration.

Thus 0 is not the lower limit.  For example, two molar hydrochloric acid (she has used this in her science lab) has a pH of -0.3

Bob

Children are not defined by school ...........The Fonz
You cannot teach a man anything;  you can only help him find it within himself..........Galileo Galilei

Offline

## #11 2012-08-25 15:30:29

Agnishom
Real Member
From: Riemann Sphere
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 24,769
Website

### Re: pH = 0

So chemistry is quite dynamic

'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.

Offline

## #12 2012-08-25 20:25:09

bob bundy
Moderator
Registered: 2010-06-20
Posts: 7,969

### Re: pH = 0

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by dynamic.  Her lab still has the marks  from when an experiment went a bit too violently and splatted all over the ceiling.  Her class, of course, thought it was GREAT!

Back to pH.  Not even the 'pure water is 7' tells the whole truth apparently.

It depends on the temperature (and maybe the pressure).  So water could have a pH that is a little under or over 7.

There must be a lower limit, but she is not sure what it is.  Other physical forces would eventually come into play.

Bob

Children are not defined by school ...........The Fonz
You cannot teach a man anything;  you can only help him find it within himself..........Galileo Galilei

Offline

## #13 2012-08-28 01:17:00

Agnishom
Real Member
From: Riemann Sphere
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 24,769
Website

### Re: pH = 0

What is the pH of boiling water??

'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested.

Offline

## #14 2012-08-28 02:15:59

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: Harlan's World
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 16,037

### Re: pH = 0

Hi Agnishom

If the water contains minerals, then they get removed from the water during the boiling, so the pH of boiling water is closer to 7 than the pH of regular water. If the water was pure, then the pH before, during and after the boiling is the same and equal to 7.

Hi Bob

Can the pH be >14?

Last edited by anonimnystefy (2012-08-28 02:16:41)

Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.
Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most. ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment
The knowledge of some things as a function of age is a delta function.

Offline

## #15 2012-08-28 02:28:54

bob bundy
Moderator
Registered: 2010-06-20
Posts: 7,969

### Re: pH = 0

Just got home from a trip.

What is the pH of boiling water??

Mrs B says 6 point something.

Can the pH be >14?

Mrs B doesn't know.  shock!

I'll try to get better answers to these and again post later.

LATER EDIT:  I've had a trawl around the internet and it seems that ph > 14 is possible.  See, for example,

And for boiling water:

http://www.brookscole.com/chemistry_d/t … ofab7.html

Bob

Children are not defined by school ...........The Fonz
You cannot teach a man anything;  you can only help him find it within himself..........Galileo Galilei

Offline

## #16 2012-08-28 07:48:07

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: Harlan's World
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 16,037

### Re: pH = 0

Actually, nevermind, I found it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbase

Is the pH of boiling and boiled water the same?

Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.
Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most. ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment
The knowledge of some things as a function of age is a delta function.

Offline