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#1 2011-11-14 17:39:18

reconsideryouranswer
Member
Registered: 2011-05-11
Posts: 172

Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

spelling difficulty of the words is the prime factor.

All spellers should have to spell the same word during
the same round, at the same time, using magnetic
letters on a board (or something similar), in privacy
spaces (but facing out to the judges), and reveal their
spelling attempts all at the same time.

The ones who pass move on to another round.

There could be a double elimination to keep
players longer for another chance.

In the event that all of the players miss a
word on a reveal, they could be backed up
and retry on a different word.

The whole system (tweaks and all) would
cut down significantly on the variability of
the difficulty of one word for a person to
the next word for a different person.


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#2 2011-11-14 17:53:18

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 81,394

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

Hi;

No insult intended but did you just get eliminated? Do not feel bad. I was eliminated 5 times in double elimination events after reaching the top 4 each time.

Two of the words I missed on were "semester" and "addressed!"

Just an example of a young boy's nervous energy and willpower tapping out.

Spelling contests, like all forms of competition are a test of what a person has under the hood. They test, courage, stamina, luck, willpower, concentration, nerves and the desire to win. This is what separates one from another, not who knows how to spell more words. Your attempts to create parity among the competitors is defeating the purpose of the contest.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

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#3 2011-11-16 16:33:24

reconsideryouranswer
Member
Registered: 2011-05-11
Posts: 172

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

bobbym & lookagain edit wrote:

Hi;

No insult intended but did you just get eliminated?


Spelling contests, like all forms of competition are a test of what a person has under the hood.
They test, courage, stamina,

luck,
willpower, concentration, nerves and the desire to win.



They test, courage, stamina, luck, willpower, concentration, nerves and the desire to win.










Source:
http://www.spellingbee.com/about-the-bee


Your attempts to create parity among the competitors is
defeating the purpose of the contest.






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#4 2011-11-16 23:37:20

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 81,394

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

Our purpose is to help students improve their spelling increase their vocabularies, learn concepts, and develop correct English usage that will help them all their lives.

Sounds like an Oprah or Phil quote. Good for the tv audience. That is like saying we have a presidential election to teach the candidates good sportsmanship!

The purpose of contests is to win with lots of bloodshed for the spectators. Watching each defeated kid leaving the stage with that look of utter despair that is what interests the spectators. Holding up that trophy while glaring at the vanquished that is what interests the competitors.

The old time format of spelling contests got the job done! The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat so to speak. I know all about, "everyone is winner," "we are all unique flowers," "it is not whether you win...," all the modern psycho-socio-babble.

It's more of a c-r-a-p-s-h-o-o-t as it is now run (and has been running)

One more thing, the best will always tell you that they make their own luck. All the ones I was in the best man won.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

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#5 2011-11-18 09:27:57

reconsideryouranswer
Member
Registered: 2011-05-11
Posts: 172

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

bobbym wrote:

Our purpose is to help students improve their spelling increase
their vocabularies, learn concepts, and develop correct English usage that will help them
all their lives.

Sounds like an Oprah or Phil quote.




Good for the tv audience. That is like saying we have a presidential election to teach
the candidates good sportsmanship!




The purpose of contests is to win with lots of bloodshed for the spectators.


Watching each defeated kid leaving the stage with that look of utter despair that is
what interests the spectators. Holding up that trophy while glaring at the vanquished
that is what interests the competitors.

It does not matter a *flip* what you claim what the audience likes regarding it! 
The interests of the spectators is immaterial.  The competition isn't for them.
The competition is not for the audience, but for the contestants.
Is that another point that got by you?

The competitors can hold their trophies *regardless*.

The old time format of spelling contests got the job done!


The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat so to speak.
I know all about, "everyone is winner," "we are all unique flowers," "
it is not whether you win...," all the modern psycho-socio-babble.



It's more of a c-r-a-p-s-h-o-o-t as it is now run (and has been running)

One more thing, the best will always tell you that they make their own luck.

Nope, your premise is wrong to begin with, because there is no
"best" in this context where they aren't challenged on the same words.

All the ones I was in the best man won.







luck, was a significant factor which was not "made" by them.

Last edited by reconsideryouranswer (2011-11-18 10:44:34)


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#6 2011-11-19 01:39:06

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 81,394

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

You meant heck right?

What, is your crack supposed to dismiss it?

A statement is not a crack. That is you putting your own spin on my thoughts.

where students are expected to act civil and be good role models from the schools they are from.

You are describing an exercise in etiquette, not a contest. Contestants must obey the rules, nothing more. Of course the cleverest ones will bend them as much as possible. This helps insure victory.

What is "got the job done?"  Better (and including fairer) ways come along and show how the older ways were too flawed.

It means was adequate for the purpose. One of those old and unfair statements that were before your time. It worked is my point! This is an attribute that it has and your way lacks. After all, your ideas have never been tested.

Is it possible that your ad hoc ideas are incorrect?

Garik Kasparov Former World Chess Champion wrote:

It is all the same ( contests of any kind ). The goal is to destroy the opponents ego, his will.

The difference between a boxing match, basketball game or a spelling contest is only the rules. The point is exactly the same.

A little probability will tell you that the luck you speak of averages out. There is very little luck factor in a spelling contest ( old rules ). You are in error assuming that the losers were unlucky. They were outspelled, simple as that.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

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#7 2011-11-19 16:50:55

reconsideryouranswer
Member
Registered: 2011-05-11
Posts: 172

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

bobbym wrote:

You meant heck right?

What, is your crack supposed to dismiss it?

A statement is not a crack. That is you putting your
own spin on my thoughts.

A statement can be a crack, and regardless that you stated that
a statement is not (read:  is not equivalent to) a crack,
that makes your sentence, about a statement about not being a
crack, immaterial. 

And are you going to now deny that that statement was made to
discredit the Internet quote as to being taken seriously,
else you just rambled and went off on a tangent by typing it?
Either it was a crack to *attempt* to discredit the quote or it
was made in jest to change the subject.  Pick one.

where students are expected to act civil and be good role models
from the schools they are from.

You are describing an exercise in etiquette, not a contest. Contestants
must obey the rules, nothing more.





Of course the cleverest ones will bend them as much as possible.
This helps insure victory.






What is "got the job done?"  Better (and including fairer) ways come
along and show how the older ways were too flawed.

It means was adequate for the purpose.

One of those old and unfair statements that were before your time.








---------------------------------------------------------------

"Well, how do you know it got the job done?"

"It was because it was adequate for the purpose."

"How did you know it was adequate for the purpose?"

"Well, it got the job done."

---------------------------------------------------------------


It worked is my point! This is an attribute that it has and

your way lacks.




After all, your ideas have never been tested.

Is it possible that your ad hoc ideas are incorrect?

Garik Kasparov Former World Chess Champion wrote:

It is all the same
( contests of any kind ). The goal is to destroy the opponents ego, his will.

That is Kasparov's opinion, and it is not a statement of fact. 



The difference between a boxing match, basketball game or a spelling
contest is only the rules. The point is exactly the same.

 



A little probability will tell you that the luck you speak of averages out.




There is very little luck factor in a spelling contest ( old rules ).



You are in error assuming that the losers were unlucky.
They were outspelled, simple as that.


There are the cases where the  losers might/may have been
outspelled on words of similar familiarity/difficulty level and/or
got too nervous in their attempts on stage.




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#8 2011-11-19 17:47:47

reconsideryouranswer
Member
Registered: 2011-05-11
Posts: 172

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

Suppose that there is a more knowledgeable speller (and who works
well under pressure while spelling) among a particular set of contestants.

If a large enough number of spelling bees were to be conducted
using these same contestants, but no others, then the Law of
Averages would have the better seller winning most of the
spelling bees, despite the significant variability in the difficulty
level of the chosen words.

But, that doesn't apply, because the same sets of contestants
don't play each other in subsequent bees.

As it is, each new word  for an individual is similar to a coin flip.
On one side of the "coin," it could represent the contestant
getting a word of difficulty level near the that spelling bee's average
difficulty level of words.  Or, on the other side of the "coin,"
it could represent that contestant getting a word significantly
less difficult or more difficult than the average for that particular
set of contestants in that particular spelling bee.


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#9 2011-11-20 11:30:45

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 81,394

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

Hi;

That is Kasparov's opinion, and it is not a statement of fact.

Try to understand that everything you have said is also opinion. A singular opinion, one without any mathematics or experience to back it up. You feel that there is variability in the test. No one else does. So unless you can get on the school board...

I was not vague because you could not understand the reference. You must begin to accept the fact that you might be wrong. Your opinion does not qualify as a fact. Thousands of kids have taken and will be in future spelling contests. They are satisfied with the rules and the results, why aren't you?

However, the total number of losses due to unluckiness of the words given to them increases on average with the newer totals of spelling bees conducted.

Unluckiness? First you say more spelling bees would reduce the luck factor ( which is true ) now you say it does not.

Sorry, in competition which you do not want to admit a spelling contest is, nerves and luck counts. You are still holding on to the opinion that the losers were unlucky. That they were superior spellers but were somehow discriminated against. You say you are not but everything you say proves otherwise.

The words are picked carefully to be of equal difficulty. Even if they were not, the best spellers would still win. Remember I missed on very, very easy words, my opponents did not. If I remember the next contestant spelled my word correctly. Now what the heck is unfair about that.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

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#10 2011-11-21 01:56:45

reconsideryouranswer
Member
Registered: 2011-05-11
Posts: 172

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

bobbym wrote:

That is Kasparov's opinion, and it is not a statement of fact.

Try to understand that everything you have said is also opinion.


You feel that there is variability in the test.



[math\text{Your statement is utter presumptuous, and therefore}[/math]

So unless you can get on the school board...


[math\text{It is similar to saying that one be a checf to know that the food doesn't taste good.}[/math]

I was not vague because you could not understand the reference.
You must begin to accept the fact that you might be wrong.
Your opinion does not qualify as a fact. Thousands of kids have
taken and will be in future spelling contests.
They are satisfied with the rules and the results, why aren't you?

However, the total number of losses due to unluckiness of
the words given to them increases on average with the newer totals
of spelling bees conducted.

Unluckiness? First you say more spelling bees would reduce the luck factor ( which is true )
now you say it does not.


Sorry, in competition which you do not want to admit a spelling contest is, nerves and luck counts.
You are still holding on to the opinion that the losers were unlucky. That they were superior spellers
but were somehow discriminated against.
[tex]Random difficulty of words **is** dicrimination, so accept that.}[/math]

You say you are not but everything you say proves otherwise.

The words are picked carefully to be of equal difficulty.


Even if they were not, the best spellers would still win.

Remember I missed on very, very easy words, my opponents did not.

If I remember the next contestant spelled my word correctly.


To be edited . . .
Now what the heck is unfair about that.


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#11 2011-11-21 02:45:32

reconsideryouranswer
Member
Registered: 2011-05-11
Posts: 172

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

Monday, 11/21/11


Administrator of MathIsFun:

Problem:  spamming by bobbym

I already sent a message intended for you to lock this
thread that is located here

http://www.mathisfunforum.com/viewtopic.php?id=16897


-------------------------------------------------------------


Please do it now, and it is my thread that I
started anyway.  It has been hijacked by bobbym,
who keeps spamming it with posts of lies towards me.

Thank you,

User reconsideryouranswer


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#12 2011-11-21 02:58:08

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 81,394

Re: Spelling bees aren't run fairly. Too much variability in the ...

Hi;

What the heck are you talking about? What lies about you? I thought we were talking about spelling contests.

You say I am intellectually dishonest because I have a different opinion than you? One based on having actually competed in those events.

When you post you are inviting comment from other members. Those comments do not have to agree with your opinions. You cannot call them liars and say their comments are lies. You must tolerate the other persons viewpoint.

I closed the thread as you requested.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

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