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#1 2010-11-03 09:58:35

LQ
Real Member
Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 1,285

No hair-theorem wrong

Since quantum entanglement includes entropy it must evaporate somewhere from the black hole in order for it to loose all its energy.

Quote from wikipedia:  "The entropy of any of the two subsystems of the entangled state discussed above is log2 (which can be shown to be the maximum entropy for  mixed states)."

So basically, the black holes decreased/increased information, must also come out as decreased/increased information

Hence wherever it comes out there must be some "hair" in the black hole.

Last edited by LQ (2010-11-03 10:45:21)


I see clearly now, the universe have the black dots, Thus I am on my way of inventing this remedy...

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#2 2010-11-03 14:09:03

bobbym
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From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,562

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Hair? Is that a new Hawking term, Hawking Hair?!


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#3 2010-11-03 21:43:26

LQ
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Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 1,285

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Something to do with that quantum entanglement doesn't seem to leave the black hole.


I see clearly now, the universe have the black dots, Thus I am on my way of inventing this remedy...

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#4 2010-11-04 06:11:36

bobbym
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From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,562

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Hi LQ;

I have heard virtual particle production, according to Hawking because of it a black will slowly dissolve given enough time.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#5 2010-11-05 00:31:33

LQ
Real Member
Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 1,285

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Well for any black hole to dissolve into something else then the original matter, wouldn't it be needing a direction of movement over which it can change, no matter how that or those direction(s) would possibly look?

So basically, when the outside quantumentangled particle had the entanglement with the particle inside the black hole, the particle inside couldn't possibly have lost its entanglement unless the outside entangled particle entangles with some other particle, in which case the quantumentanglement inside the black hole must've been dissolved and the energy left the black hole faster then the speed of light?

And since time doesn't pass in the black hole, allmost all matter inside are entangled together timewise, and hence all quantumentanglements in the black hole leaves it when one entangled particle outside, entangles with something else instead.

Last edited by LQ (2010-11-05 00:48:27)


I see clearly now, the universe have the black dots, Thus I am on my way of inventing this remedy...

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#6 2010-11-05 05:58:40

bobbym
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From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,562

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Hi LQ;

Quantum Entanglement leaves me sort of tied up.  I do not know if that is what is happening. The Hawking paper that I was talking about says that it will take

1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years for an average black hole to dissove.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#7 2010-11-05 06:44:40

LQ
Real Member
Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 1,285

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Well. What if it takes alot shorter then that? Hear me out.

If 2 photons became entangled and split up, one entering the black hole, what if the whole black hole becomes entangled?
Wouldn't then a heck of an amount of entanglement entropy be released when the other photon re-entangles?

Last edited by LQ (2010-11-05 07:34:24)


I see clearly now, the universe have the black dots, Thus I am on my way of inventing this remedy...

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#8 2010-11-05 06:50:55

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,562

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Hi LQ;

Nope, because a photon is if I remember one of four fundamental particles. It cannot be split into anything smaller.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#9 2010-11-05 07:11:16

LQ
Real Member
Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 1,285

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

Look under concept, clearly a photon can decay into for instance heat?

"When particles decay into other particles, these decays must obey the various conservation laws. As a result, pairs of particles can be generated that are required to be in certain quantum states."

I thought that decay must apply in some mean to photons too?


I see clearly now, the universe have the black dots, Thus I am on my way of inventing this remedy...

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#10 2010-11-05 07:26:22

bobbym
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From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,562

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Hi LQ;

Nowhere does that article say a photon decays or can be broken down into anything else.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#11 2010-11-05 07:32:51

LQ
Real Member
Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 1,285

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Well I simply meant that 2 photons became entangled and left eachother, one entering the black hole, let me edit, w8


I see clearly now, the universe have the black dots, Thus I am on my way of inventing this remedy...

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#12 2010-11-05 08:16:35

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,562

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Hi LQ;

That quantum entanglement is related to the Einstein Paradox which he called spooky action at distance. His thought experiment proved to him that if quantum mechanics was true then the laws of conservation of charge and spin were not.

Bell supposedly patched it up but it was rekindled in an exchange between Gunter Nimtz and Raymond Chow over the phenomena of quantum tunneling. Nimtz says he can transmit information at 300 times the speed of light, Chow says nope.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Offline

#13 2010-11-05 08:57:21

LQ
Real Member
Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 1,285

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Imagine that the more dimensions you use, the faster is the quantum entanglement transmitted, since the transmitting particles are still hooped but less of them, So basically you are sending the information in a more straight line then 4D space, since you send the information over directions in space in which they intersept quicker.


I see clearly now, the universe have the black dots, Thus I am on my way of inventing this remedy...

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#14 2010-11-05 09:34:23

LQ
Real Member
Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 1,285

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

If 2 photons became entangled and split up, one entering the black hole, what if the whole black hole becomes entangled due to that time doesn't pass in a black hole?
Wouldn't then a heck of an amount of entanglement entropy be released when the other photon re-entangles?


I see clearly now, the universe have the black dots, Thus I am on my way of inventing this remedy...

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#15 2010-11-05 09:51:08

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,562

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Hi LQ;

I do not think you release entanglement. The rest I have no idea about.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Offline

#16 2010-11-05 10:13:13

LQ
Real Member
Registered: 2006-12-04
Posts: 1,285

Re: No hair-theorem wrong

Surely quantum entangled information must carry entropy and thus energy?

Okay, I'm gonna make this simple, because this concept needs it:

1. 2 photons entangle
2. 1 of them enters a black hole and freezes in time
3. Time in the black hole has been still for eons. If one quantum entangled particle enters it can and will be in a phase of changing entanglement in a still time. Thus all other particles in the black hole are together in that phase.
4. When the outer photon entangles with something else the previous entanglement is droped, making the photon loose all its quantum entanglement entropy.
5. When 4 happens all the entangled entropy in the black hole is released. But where is it released?
6 Half at one and half at the other?


I see clearly now, the universe have the black dots, Thus I am on my way of inventing this remedy...

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