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#1 2005-06-13 13:31:50

Zach
Member
Registered: 2005-03-23
Posts: 2,075

Serious Discussion!

As this is a general discussion board open to all people, I would like to propose a serious discussion. One of which I would like people not to start making stupid comments on (I'm looking at you here, Mr. T. ) and one that I hope will result in people's views being less than violent. If people do become violent, I will be forced to mollify you with indian music.


Now, as you all know, I'm hoping, that in America, in some states, it is a legal punishment to sentence a person to death for their crimes. Now, I'm looking for your views on the death penalty. Do you agree with it or disagree? Tell me your views, either opinion is your own and you must remember that other people will disagree with you, and at that point, you must remember people will argue, and please do it politely. x.x

Now, my opinion on such a matter;

Now, the death penalty in America pretty much boils down to The Law of the Talon (An eye for an eye, a life for a life), which is a very old testament view of Christianity. There are many things in Christian lore which I do not agree with, and this is one of them (Another is forgiveness, but nevermind that).
The death penalty is based on the idea of deterrence. Those who believe that they are to be set to death for the crimes the commit will not do them. This idea obviously is complete rubbish as crimes of such magnitude are still being commited.
The death penalty has been taken from the many alternate methods to most 'humane' (apparently), the lethal injection, where they inject drugs into the blood stream, firstly numbing the body and pain, then stopping the internal organs and finally the brain.
To my knowledge, the only crime worthy of death is that of murder. The family who have lost their own child or father or husband or sibling to this crime are allowed to watch the offender being killed.

So, here we have the set up. The executioner, the offender and the victims family (and anyone else who just feels like it'll be  good killin' tonight) within a room, the spectators seperated by a pane of glass as they watch. As the executioner pulls those levers, how does he feel? How can he justify doing exactly what the person strapped to the bench did, but feel none of the consequences? The drugs pumped into the veins, the executioner watching as he exacts this so called 'ruling'. This act of which they deemed illegal for the offender to do, which they themselves carry out.

Can it truly be said that a family who has lost their own child is allowed to do the same thing to another out of pure revenge? A sad fact, if it be true. Does the offender feel no guilt for the actions? They may feel remorse for such an action, they may not. But, why set out to do unto them, as which you have deemed unlawful? This makes the executioner, a murderer themself and thusly, should stand court for murder. Though, they don't.

The Death Penalty just causes more death, which is what was set out to be stopped in the first place. The people who enforce this idea are trying to use infection logic, that if you take enough of the offending virus, you can make an antidote. Unfortunately, they fail to realise that this works on diseases and infections, not crime. Violence begets violence and death causes just more death.

[ My opinion does not represent any ruling bodies of the US of A, UK, CI or any other countries. ]


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#2 2005-06-13 20:00:01

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,552

Re: Serious Discussion!

I am against the death penalty because there is no going back. No "oops, sorry".

I also agree with you that a society that says "it is ok to kill if we do it" is not actually setting a good example.

And the argument FOR the death penalty is either a) revenge - and I think that laws that encourage revenge are bad for society, or b) a deterrent - I wonder if anyone has any evidence of the deterrent value of death vs decades in a brutal jail system.

BTW, the murder rate in the USA is 0.04 per thousand, but only 0.01 in the UK, Australia or New Zealand - shouldn't the death penalty be making things safer in the States?


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

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#3 2005-06-13 21:12:08

justlookingforthemoment
Moderator
Registered: 2005-05-26
Posts: 2,161

Re: Serious Discussion!

Has anyone heard of the recent trial of Australian Shappelle Corby? She was convicted of smuggling drugs into Indonesia in her boogie board bag. Most of Australia believes she is innocent, except the Indonesian government. They will not accept that she didn't put the marijuana in her bag. She was locked in Indonesia for 7 months while she had her trial - her final verdict could have been the death sentence, but ended out to be 20 years in an Indonesian prison. Her whole life has come to an end now, she has no future - when she comes out of jail, she will be almost 50 - it will be too late to start a life.

What do you think is worse? The death penalty or a life sentence in jail?
Which is fairer?

Two wrongs don't make a right...

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#4 2005-06-14 02:57:21

mathsyperson
Guest

Re: Serious Discussion!

This is a very interesting topic, the only problem being that Zach said so much in his opening speech that he has already covered most people's opinions. (That's not a complaint, by the way) The only other thing that I can think of is that if the death penalty was removed then its replacement would most probably be a life sentence in jail, which would mean that more money would be spent on food and stuff for the prisoner who would otherwise be dead.

It's not a very good for argument and it's not my opinion, but I didn't want my post to be completely wasted.
One last thought... Zach starts a topic about the death penalty and he represents himself with a Grim Reaper. Does anyone else find that amusing?

P.S. Hee hee, thusly!

#5 2005-06-14 09:41:25

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,552

Re: Serious Discussion!

I got to thinking more about this.

Every country has its own "habits" or "culture". You know - those funny differences you find if you travel or live in other countries. Some places are very polite (Americans are always joking about how polite Canadians are - it is true though), others accept lying and cheating as quite normal, etc.

So, I thought, shouldn't the Government be setting an example to it's citizens on what is good or bad behaviour? If the police and punishment system is violent it sends a message to people - "this is how powerful people behave".

But in countries where the police are well behaved, and the prison system is humane, and the punishments are reasonable, the citizens tend to behave better. (This is just a bald statement without facts, but have a think about violent vs peaceful countries and it seems to be true)

Lead by example!


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

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#6 2005-06-16 07:45:22

Mr T
Member
Registered: 2005-03-30
Posts: 1,012

Re: Serious Discussion!

when the people are "executed" the state records it officially as a homicide. and the talon law is just in the old testement/torah. the forgiveness stuff is all jesus.


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#7 2005-06-16 09:53:00

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,552

Re: Serious Discussion!

Mr T wrote:

when the people are "executed" the state records it officially as a homicide.

Interesting. So the state should be tried for homicide, then?

Mr T wrote:

and the talon law is just in the old testement/torah. the forgiveness stuff is all jesus.

Yes, I would say that forgiveness is a hallmark of Christianity.

What do YOU think, Mr T, is the death penalty good or bad?


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

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#8 2005-06-17 05:08:41

stewie
Member
Registered: 2005-03-28
Posts: 820

Re: Serious Discussion!

Its all good.  That way our taxes aren't wasted on guys playin their playstation in jail and if your against it its only because you afraid of getting it yourself.  Oh, and it stops them from killing more people.  THE END.
big_smile


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#9 2005-07-18 22:44:18

insomnia
Real Member
Registered: 2005-03-23
Posts: 944

Re: Serious Discussion!

So, you would much rather destroy something that we have no right to destroy. It is not our right to judge if someone deserves to live or die.

However, people who support this abdomination say that the murderer had no right and therfore he must be punished.

The death penalty is basiclly a vicous circle of death.

So, don't commit High Treason or Piracy on the high seas, as these are still punishible by death!!


Friends are angels who lift our feet when our own wings have trouble remembering how to fly

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#10 2005-07-19 08:23:33

im really bored
Member
Registered: 2005-05-12
Posts: 76

Re: Serious Discussion!

In my opinion the death penalty doesnt just include lethal injection, the chair ect. but also includes life sentences because either way you are going to die for your crime, such as the state I live has no death penalty but a few months ago when a man was convicted of some horrible crimes, I wont say what, he was given I think 1300 some years in prison without bail. So what would be worse, knowing you are gonna die right then and there, or knowing you will never leave the prison you are in and will live there and die there no matter what.

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#11 2005-07-26 07:06:43

EveryoneTookTheGoodNames
Member
Registered: 2005-07-19
Posts: 155

Re: Serious Discussion!

Mr T wrote:

and the talon law is just in the old testement/torah. the forgiveness stuff is all jesus.

Yes, I would say that forgiveness is a hallmark of Christianity.

The testement/torah is to do with Judasim not Christianty

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#12 2005-07-27 00:09:01

ganesh
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-28
Posts: 15,159

Re: Serious Discussion!

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth....
Extrapolated,
a life for a life roll
It takes the society nowhere.
But what do we do with criminals involved in
Homicide / Terrorism / Drug trafficking / Adultery / Molesting ?
Forgive them?
Award a lesser sentence like life imprisonment??
Banish them ??? roll


Character is who you are when no one is looking.

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