Math Is Fun Forum
  Discussion about math, puzzles, games and fun.   Useful symbols: ÷ × ½ √ ∞ ≠ ≤ ≥ ≈ ⇒ ± ∈ Δ θ ∴ ∑ ∫ • π ƒ -¹ ² ³ °

You are not logged in.

#1 2014-03-15 07:14:06

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

I mean people like Einstein, Isaac Newton, Nikola Tesla, John Nash, etc go down in history for their contributions to the fields. Even people like Richard Feynman with non exceptional IQ's contributed aa significant amount to the field. Why do we see so many people that are held as geniuses never doing stuff but memorizing thousands of digits of pi.

Lets use Daniel Tammet as an example. He contributed more for society by being a test subject rather than help create anything. He had exceptional memory but is only known to have used it learning languages and taking part in memory contests.


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#2 2014-03-15 07:42:36

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 86,676

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

Hi;

Who said anything about Danny being a genius? And what is a genius anyway? There is a group here where all the geniuses congregate and discuss their lack of achievement. Smart ain't enough. Genius ain't enough. So what is enough?

Newton wrote:

If others would think as hard as I did, then they would get similar results.

No one believes that, and that is the problem.

It takes hard work to be great and ( Isaac Newton, Nikola Tesla, Einstein and many more ) were capable of that.

For another thing, lots of geniuses are stuck in a box just like everyone else. They are like a racing car going round and round a very small track. They are going nowhere fast.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ77f8kWus7uJArupIpAOclOpt3uHlwSaVgfgOHzXYNn7e7x4JQ

Pauling. wrote:

The best way to have a good idea is to have lots of ideas.

The productive ones are able to free their imagination and are willing to look at ideas everyone else will not.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

Offline

#3 2014-03-15 08:11:01

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

A girl was saying that if someone was a genius then they would figure a way to climb up the socio-economic. Since that's what she wants to do. There is a quote that went something like "Humans think they are smarter than doplhins because they have built civilizations and dolphins swim around having fun all day. Dolphins think they are smarter than humans for the exact same reason."

Sometimes I wonder what intelligence, intellect and genius even mean. I know their dictionary definitions but people will call an intelligent person stupid just because the person is ignorant. Or they call a person stupid for making a mistake they wouldn't. They will call a person smart because they're good at memorizing and regurgitation. Or they will say the person is smart because they know a lot of information.

The definition of intelligence is the ability to acquire and apply knowledge. Intelligence is said to be fixed but as you can probably realize it's easier to learn things that are similar to what you already know. Therefore having knowledge already in theory could increase intelligence.

There is a quote that went something like "Humans think they are smarter than doplhins because they have built civilizations and dolphins swim around having fun all day. Dolphins think they are smarter than humans for the exact same reason.

Genius is defined as "exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability." Again people in prison are known for getting very creative because they have time to think. So I believe Newtons quotation has some merit.


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#4 2014-03-15 08:17:53

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 86,676

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

Hi;

Heck, we certainly should at least consider something that a guy like Newton says.

A girl was saying that if someone was a genius then they would figure a way to climb up the socio-economic. Since that's what she wants to do.

Has she had any luck?


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

Offline

#5 2014-03-15 08:27:50

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

bobbym wrote:

Hi;

Heck, we certainly should at least consider something that a guy like Newton says.

A girl was saying that if someone was a genius then they would figure a way to climb up the socio-economic. Since that's what she wants to do.

Has she had any luck?

She has a $50k = £30 job with a car and her own little apartment. The socio-economic success is relative to what you consider successful. Being a woman she loves her security and wont take the risk of trying to start her own business. She might pursue a PHD in hopes she gets increased pay


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#6 2014-03-15 10:17:57

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 86,676

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

I understand perfectly. Sounds like a very practical sort of person. Probably not a genius though.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

Offline

#7 2014-03-15 10:28:25

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

bobbym wrote:

I understand perfectly. Sounds like a very practical sort of person. Probably not a genius though.

Oh I think you misunderstood a little detail. She never claimed to be a genius. She had middle class parents. She went to a decent university and got a decent job and I suppose you need decent intelligence to do that. In my personal opinion her reasoning is dismall but she's good at rote memorization.

She said to someone else "If you were a genius then you would figure a way out of your situation." She said that in the context of climbing the socio-economic ladder. Not that the person claimed to be a genius.


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#8 2014-03-15 11:52:22

ShivamS
Member
Registered: 2011-02-07
Posts: 3,532

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

I agree. In my opinion, a genius should be defined by his hard work, passion and contribution to their field. Nowadays, IQ > 150 is the main deciding factor.

Offline

#9 2014-03-15 12:47:58

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

ShivamS wrote:

I agree. In my opinion, a genius should be defined by his hard work, passion and contribution to their field. Nowadays, IQ > 150 is the main deciding factor.

I actually think it's a combination of genetics and hardwork and a variety of other factors. Take for example an olympic sprinter. They trained hard to be able to run that fast. However the average man could train that hard and couldn't expect to run as fast a Usain Bolt does. I don't think everyone has the capacity to make breakthroughs. Although probablyl more men than we allow have the ability to contribute to scientific fields. We can't expect an average man to be able to learn, comprehend and apply concepts at the rate of an intellectual.  I just think traits like persistence, curiosity, creativity and an ability to think outside the box should be considered more. Because there are plenty of intelligent people who go to university don't do much with it, yet you have people creating things without that much formal education.

Google or Youtube this:  15-Yr-Old Kelvin Doe Wows M.I.T.

Last edited by PatternMan (2014-03-15 12:54:30)


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#10 2014-03-15 13:04:33

ShivamS
Member
Registered: 2011-02-07
Posts: 3,532

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

Richard Feynman had a rather decent IQ, yet he contributed to physics in a major way. Talent would help, but I think one can run as fast as Bolt if they train daily for multiple yours for several years.

I've met Kelvin here - he's a very smart engineer. But let me assure you he got there due to his creativity and hard work along with curiosity, much rather then IQ (which I'm sure he has a fairly high of).

Last edited by ShivamS (2014-03-15 13:04:49)

Offline

#11 2014-03-15 14:05:47

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

ShivamS wrote:

Richard Feynman had a rather decent IQ, yet he contributed to physics in a major way. Talent would help, but I think one can run as fast as Bolt if they train daily for multiple yours for several years.

I've met Kelvin here - he's a very smart engineer. But let me assure you he got there due to his creativity and hard work along with curiosity, much rather then IQ (which I'm sure he has a fairly high of).

That must have been an enriching experience to meet him. I would actually like to see a study done on this. They should take groups of people with no more than average IQ's or even low ones, and provide them with all the facilities and education they need, then see how much they can contribute.

I actually would be a test subject of my own volition. I have always been called creative a lot in the past and I do have lots of ideas. I am the kid who would stare into space and daydream in class. My intelligence is probably only a high average or slightly higher than that at best though. I want to see how far I can go with mathematics though. I might choose to adopt a science subject so I can experiment and try to innovate.

My problem has always been people thinking I'm stupid because of my bad grade and lack of qualifications from school. I went from an 11 year old education to doing 16 year old exams without being taught the material so it's natural i would get low grades. My chances of getting into a STEM career area is almost non existent. Unless I do something exceptional with proof. nethertheless I will do mathematics in my own time then see if I can get into STEM later.

I love to learn from experimentation but the books don't teach that way. I need to learn a lot more math and science before I can start to play with it. I'll start learning little bit of programming now though since you only need basic arithmetic and algebra to start.

Last edited by PatternMan (2014-03-15 14:24:41)


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#12 2014-03-15 19:39:58

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 86,676

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

We can't expect an average man to be able to learn, comprehend and apply concepts at the rate of an intellectual.

What is an average man? There was a kid in school who was so dumb that he held the entire class back. He was always 4 answers behind everyone else and the teachers always had to help him catch up while we all waited. He was particularly bad at math.

A couple of years later I met him and he asked if I would accompany him to the track. He fancied himself a horseplayer. I went out of curiosity. I was amazed to find that he could calculate complicated odds and payoffs in his head much faster than I could. More than that he understood probability, he had taught himself. So you see, he was not dumb, he just needed to be motivated.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

Offline

#13 2014-03-16 01:45:41

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

bobbym wrote:

We can't expect an average man to be able to learn, comprehend and apply concepts at the rate of an intellectual.

What is an average man? There was a kid in school who was so dumb that he held the entire class back. He was always 4 answers behind everyone else and the teachers always had to help him catch up while we all waited. He was particularly bad at math.

A couple of years later I met him and he asked if I would accompany him to the track. He fancied himself a horseplayer. I went out of curiosity. I was amazed to find that he could calculate complicated odds and payoffs in his head much faster than I could. More than that he understood probability, he had taught himself. So you see, he was not dumb, he just needed to be motivated.

Maybe he wasn't dumb all along. Maybe people assumed he was dumb just because he was slow. maybe he just wrote slow, or spent more time thinking about the questions. Even if he was a bit slower than the other people, he had a interest in maths so developed it. So many people don't put in the work.


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#14 2014-03-16 02:16:41

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 86,676

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

He certainly was not being motivated by class work.

It has been conjectured that every person has some ability that he/she would excel at, be the best at. Sometimes the ability remains undiscovered or the art he would excel at has not been invented! Mostly, the person is just undiscovered by the world and is just another wasted resource of our planet.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

Offline

#15 2014-03-16 02:48:26

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

bobbym wrote:

He certainly was not being motivated by class work.

It has been conjectured that every person has some ability that he/she would excel at, be the best at. Sometimes the ability remains undiscovered or the art he would excel at has not been invented! Mostly, the person is just undiscovered by the world and is just another wasted resource of our planet.

The issue with public education is that it's not there to educate students and bring out their potential. That is an indirect effect if it happens. It is there to mold the children to fit roles that society supposedly needs at the time. Success in school is determined by your ability to follow orders, memorize and regurgitate what you're told. That's training children to be obedient rote memorizing machines.

Some children become terribly bored with this robotic process spanning the course of years so don't do well. These children may be good at a subject but don't get into it because in school its a boring passive process. Society doesn't care about their talents unless it benefits society. Society will try to mold people into what it needs. In my grandparents era they molded them into factory workers. In my mums they molded the lower classes of people for clerical work, construction etc. Just things needed for the functioning of society. The politicians, think tank workers, scientists almost exclusively come from the upper classes unless the person from a lower class stands out and makes it through thte school system to an Ivy league university.

Society's needs take precedence over individuals needs. A person may want to paint, act, sing, do stand up, but there's ample supply of entertainers. The education with my generation totally failed because technology progressed so fast and the recession hit in 2008. There aren't many low skilled jobs anymore for which we were trained. There are service and retail jobs which are usually given to the attractive young women. There are trades like plumbing, bricklaying etc which are almost exclusively done by men.

The government is now trying to change the school curriculum and are offering companies cash incentives to employ young people for 6 months or more. People can be good at lots of different things but the bottom line is "can they make money doing it?" It can be useless so long as it makes money. Look how successful Coca Cola is for contributing to diabetes. Then companies make things that brake as quickly as you will put up with so you will buy more often. Rather than making things that last and saving resources.

You have to somehow fit your skills into this societal structure to survive. This is why children are steered away from their interest to focus on topics that will lead to more lucrative prospects. You can be an artist and do animation or something, or like discovering things and do research for a company but the children will need to adapt their talents to the market.

Last edited by PatternMan (2014-03-16 02:58:48)


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#16 2014-03-16 03:01:13

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 86,676

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

Almost sounds like over here. Except with the dummies we are making they certainly will not be smart enough for technical work nor strong enough for labor. I shudder to think what jobs they are being trained for.

Society doesn't care about their talents unless it's needed or entertaining.

Society better start caring about something other than how low people should wear their pants. Good ole society is on the verge of extinction.

Education, if it can be dignified with that name is the reason for the problems. Everybody here thinks it is cool to be a dummy.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

Offline

#17 2014-03-16 03:24:17

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

bobbym wrote:

Almost sounds like over here. Except with the dummies we are making they certainly will not be smart enough for technical work nor strong enough for labor. I shudder to think what jobs they are being trained for.

Society doesn't care about their talents unless it's needed or entertaining.

Society better start caring about something other than how low people should wear their pants. Good ole society is on the verge of extinction.

Education, if it can be dignified with that name is the reason for the problems. Everybody here thinks it is cool to be a dummy.

Dumb people are easier to manipulate. God knows what jobs they can do but you don't need much intelligence to do lots of jobs. Any 10 year old could be a cashier, service person or stack shelves if they're tall enough.

Also talking about almost pointless topics is a tactic to distract attention from more important issues. If the ship was going down and you were moving your luggage onto a life boat preparing to escape would you want everyone else to know the ship is going down and possibly lose your medium of escape?

I personally don't think society is on the verge of extinction though. I just think the next few decades will make history and be as interesting as the industrial revolution. With the internet, nano & biotechnology, AI with robotics , we will see a tremendous change in society in the future. So many jobs will be replaced by machines and algorithms.

Last edited by PatternMan (2014-03-16 03:30:57)


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#18 2014-03-16 03:32:21

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 86,676

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

Any 10 year old could be a cashier, service person or stack shelves if they're tall enough.

Maybe the 10 years should get the jobs. The adults and teens here can not count change. Can hardly read or write.

You are right about the lifeboat. I would probably be trying to find a wig and try to pass as an old lady and get on one first. Saw that in a movie.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

Offline

#19 2014-03-16 05:15:18

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

bobbym wrote:

Any 10 year old could be a cashier, service person or stack shelves if they're tall enough.

Maybe the 10 years should get the jobs. The adults and teens here can not count change. Can hardly read or write.

You are right about the lifeboat. I would probably be trying to find a wig and try to pass as an old lady and get on one first. Saw that in a movie.

Are you in the USA? I went to a school in Michigan there and the education was bad but I didn't think it was that bad. So what are the people over there working as if they're poorly educated?


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#20 2014-03-16 05:44:35

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 86,676

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

There are three types of people:

A) The billionaires, they run everything until it is a dead shell. They pollute the water, the air, the food. They mine the land and poison it. They care only about their bottom line. They despise the other two types and call them "useless eaters." This is funny because they actually designed and shaped the other two types.

B)The ones that want to be billionaires and think that the best way to do that is to take 3 or 4 two hour coffee breaks per day. They worship the type A's and will anything to become one except hard work. They do not mind paying for it all because in their mind someday Mr Big is going to notice them and give them the keys to executive toilet. The highest honor that can be bestowed upon them.

C) The ones that believe the system owes them a living. The government should just send them a check because they live in a ghetto. The gov. is happy to oblige after all they now totally control those people. Send the check they live, withhold it they die. Also, they get the group B people to pay for it all. This type commits all the crime and hates education. They actively beat or kill kids they see carrying books.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

Offline

#21 2014-03-16 07:27:25

PatternMan
Member
Registered: 2014-03-08
Posts: 174

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

bobbym wrote:

There are three types of people:

A) The billionaires, they run everything until it is a dead shell. They pollute the water, the air, the food. They mine the land and poison it. They care only about their bottom line. They despise the other two types and call them "useless eaters." This is funny because they actually designed and shaped the other two types.

B)The ones that want to be billionaires and think that the best way to do that is to take 3 or 4 two hour coffee breaks per day. They worship the type A's and will anything to become one except hard work. They do not mind paying for it all because in their mind someday Mr Big is going to notice them and give them the keys to executive toilet. The highest honor that can be bestowed upon them.

C) The ones that believe the system owes them a living. The government should just send them a check because they live in a ghetto. The gov. is happy to oblige after all they now totally control those people. Send the check they live, withhold it they die. Also, they get the group B people to pay for it all. This type commits all the crime and hates education. They actively beat or kill kids they see carrying books.

Similar system here except not all (A) people at the top are billionaires. They only refer to (C) as useless eaters. There is a propaganda campaign going on now to turn the B's against the C's. So they may be doing away with benefits in the future.

The (B's) here look upto the A's success and assume it is due to their merit alone. Society isn't exactly a meritocracy but they look up to people with status and want it for themselves. Many of these people don't know how or are too scared to go it alone in the business world. They end up jumping through hoops for their boss to keep a roof over their, and some goodies like Iphones and the occassional holiday. They work hard and don't take risks because they're afraid to end up as C's/

C) These people were primarily and almost exclusively responsible for the riots over here. I would probably be considered a part of this group because of my inability to get into the workforce. They feel the government owes them something. Well there aren't enough jobs to go around and they are the least desireable because of their poor education, ethnicity, accent etc. So they can't get a job and gain access to resources. Because of this those men can't get laid and the people can't afford to get any resources.

If the women can't get jobs they'll pop out a baby to get government assistant. The males usually turn to crime to make money for resources, because making yourself desireable to employers or starting a business is almost futile. It becomes a cycle where the children are raised by uneducated single moms who don't raise their children properly. The only men around with money are drug dealers  and the rare athlete or entertainer that comes back once in a while. So they look upto and try immitate these archetypes.

Last edited by PatternMan (2014-03-16 07:32:01)


"School conditions you to reject your own judgement and experiences. The facts are in the textbook. Memorize and follow the rules. What they don't tell you is the people that discovered the facts and wrote the textbooks are people like you and me."

Offline

#22 2014-03-16 16:40:44

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 86,676

Re: Why do so many people called geniuses never innovate anything?

And last but not least a lot of the people they say are talented to the point of genius just aren't.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
Of course that result can be rigorously obtained, but who cares?
Combinatorics is Algebra and Algebra is Combinatorics.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB