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#1 2013-11-21 20:15:51

niharika_kumar
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From: Numeraland
Registered: 2013-02-12
Posts: 1,028

quantum nos.

what are pricipal and secondary quantum numbers?

here is a ques i encountered,pls help.:-
If n and l be the principal and secondary quantum numbers respectively,what will be the total number of electrons in a given energy level?


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#2 2013-11-29 03:47:36

Agnishom
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From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 18,897
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Re: quantum nos.

I also wanted to know for a long time


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'You have made another human being happy. There is no greater accomplishment.' -bobbym

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#3 2013-11-29 21:24:01

niharika_kumar
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From: Numeraland
Registered: 2013-02-12
Posts: 1,028

Re: quantum nos.

i thought someone would have answered it.
by the way this question was in NTSE.
Can you suggest some forums devoted to science?(similar to this forum):)


friendship is tan 90°.

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#4 2013-11-30 00:32:27

Agnishom
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From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
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Re: quantum nos.

I was trying to make a forum but no one joined me: http://guide-to-the-galaxy.co.nf/

Maybe, you can join this one? https://www.facebook.com/groups/Science4fun/


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'You have made another human being happy. There is no greater accomplishment.' -bobbym

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#5 2013-12-02 22:46:54

niharika_kumar
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From: Numeraland
Registered: 2013-02-12
Posts: 1,028

Re: quantum nos.

i am not on facebook.
let me see if I can find one.


friendship is tan 90°.

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#6 2013-12-03 01:28:03

bobbym
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From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,737

Re: quantum nos.

I came across this while looking for something else.

The integer n in the Bohr model (and other more general models) of the atom which describes the electron shell in which a given electron resides.

The principal quantum is denoted by n and can take the values 1,2,3...


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#7 2013-12-03 01:30:26

anonimnystefy
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From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,673

Re: quantum nos.

And if I remember correctly, l can take values 0 to n-1.

Last edited by anonimnystefy (2013-12-03 05:15:57)


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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#8 2013-12-03 04:22:15

bob bundy
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Registered: 2010-06-20
Posts: 6,536

Re: quantum nos.

hi everyone,

I don't know either but I may know someone* who does. smile

Trouble is: there's those who think MIF is wonderful and could spend hours here; and there's those who think it's a waste of time (sorry sad  ) and why aren't you outside mowing the grass?

When I asked, she* was vey busy and gave me a curt response.  I'll try again when the mood is right.  kiss

Bob


You cannot teach a man anything;  you can only help him find it within himself..........Galileo Galilei

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#9 2013-12-04 23:06:56

niharika_kumar
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From: Numeraland
Registered: 2013-02-12
Posts: 1,028

Re: quantum nos.

mif is not wonderful, it is much more than that.
As per my opinion , I haven't seen any forum so enthusiastically devoted to maths and making this subject so interesting. smile


friendship is tan 90°.

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#10 2013-12-05 01:13:16

Agnishom
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From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 18,897
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Re: quantum nos.

^sounds like an Alokananda style compliment.

Did you figure out what quantam numbers are? I suggest you read the Class XI and XII NCERT Chemistry books.

http://www.ncert.nic.in/ncerts/textbook/textbook.htm

By the way, do you have an idea of what is there in the ICSE syllabus for Class X physics?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'You have made another human being happy. There is no greater accomplishment.' -bobbym

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#11 2013-12-05 01:58:54

bob bundy
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Registered: 2010-06-20
Posts: 6,536

Re: quantum nos.

hi niharika_kumar

I've never really understood quantum mechanics and, having spent a while now researching your question, I get the impression nobody else does either!  smile

Feynman wrote:

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics

Here's what I think, but it may all be wrong so believe me at your peril:

Electrons are not like miniature planets orbiting a nucleus.  And 'shells' don't really exist as there is a non zero probability that an electron could be at any distance from a nucleus.

But let's pretend shells do exist because I cannot finish this without.

Electrons can only be at certain discrete energy levels.  That's what 'quantum' means.

The principle quantum number tells you how many energy levels or shells an atom may have.  It is given the letter 'n' and n can only be 1, 2, 3 etc.

The secondary quantum number is also known as the angular momentum or azimunthal Q.N.  It is denoted by the letter 'l'.

l may take the value 0, 1 2, 3 .... up to n-1. 

Letters are also used for these as follows:  s=0,   p=1,   d=  2,   f= 3,   g= 4,  h= 5 etc.

The reason for this choice of letters dates back to the time when scientists were first doing experiments to determine the nature of the atom.  Spectra were described as sharp, principal, diffuse, and fundamental, and later these terms were applied to the secondary quantum numbers.

After fundamental, alphabetical order is used for subsequent letters.  In practice, examples in nature rarely get much further up the list.   

They are also referred to as sub-shells.  But note what I said above about shells.

In theory, the behaviour of electrons can be determined from a function called an atomic orbital.  In practice it may only be possible to obtain an approximation.  The n and l values are the result of this calculation.  Just to make things even more complicated there are two more characteristics that come from this:  the magnetic Q.N. which can take integer values from -l to +l; and the spin Q.N. which can only take values of +½ or -½.

It is widely claimed that for a given atom no two electrons may have exactly the same Q.N.s  Professor  Brian Cox says that no two electrons in the entire universe may have the same energy state as any other!  http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi … -electrons  In this series of exchanges, no poster actually says he watched the programme, but I did, and I can confirm that he did say this.  I think he may be occupying a different universe from the rest of us however smile as there are many reasons why this cannot be so.  As he is widely acknowledged as an expert on this in the UK, it just goes to show the truth of the Feynman quote.

If you're still reading at this point, well done.  I got lost several paragraphs ago.  dizzy   

If you're studying this topic and can shed any light ( photons ? ) that will help us make sense of Q. Mechanics then please post away.  smile

Bob

Last edited by bob bundy (2013-12-05 02:08:40)


You cannot teach a man anything;  you can only help him find it within himself..........Galileo Galilei

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#12 2013-12-05 02:07:48

anonimnystefy
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From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,673

Re: quantum nos.

Hi Bob

I'd say that is the current standard.

In previous physics lessons we learned also that the electron energy levels of an atom in a molecule are split up into sublevels because of the forces in the molecules and the fact that electrons interact with other nuclei as well as their own.


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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#13 2013-12-05 02:11:38

bob bundy
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Registered: 2010-06-20
Posts: 6,536

Re: quantum nos.

Stefy wrote:

I'd say that is the current standard.

What!  Are you saying that what I have written is a correct interpretation of current thinking on the subject?

If so, then I am amazed.  I was expecting a flood of corrections.

Bob


You cannot teach a man anything;  you can only help him find it within himself..........Galileo Galilei

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#14 2013-12-06 01:08:14

niharika_kumar
Member
From: Numeraland
Registered: 2013-02-12
Posts: 1,028

Re: quantum nos.

bob bundy wrote:

I am amazed.  I was expecting a flood of corrections.

well,i am just a novice on quantum mechanics and your article on it was as always understandable and satisfactory for me right now.
I wanted to know the basics and i got it.
thank you.
Will surely add more to it when I get to know it more next year. smile


friendship is tan 90°.

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#15 2013-12-06 09:26:27

ShivamS
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Registered: 2011-02-07
Posts: 3,630

Re: quantum nos.

Nikharika, I may be wrong but I don't think they cover quantum numbers in the CBSE 10th standard curricula. A forum you can try, even though there are several science enthusiasts on here, is physicsforums.com.
Agnishom, I have seen from the syllabus that the ICSE curricula is more rigorous then CBSE. I checked around meritnation for the content and to me it seems quite similar. Optics, basic Classical Mechanics and I think there was some EM.

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#16 2013-12-06 10:43:38

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,673

Re: quantum nos.

Hi Bob

I have only one correction -- h=5*.


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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#17 2013-12-06 16:20:25

Agnishom
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From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 18,897
Website

Re: quantum nos.

Thanks for explaining.

Shivam: Do you have an idea about where ICSE books can be downloaded from


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'You have made another human being happy. There is no greater accomplishment.' -bobbym

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#18 2013-12-06 17:03:49

niharika_kumar
Member
From: Numeraland
Registered: 2013-02-12
Posts: 1,028

Re: quantum nos.

Yes shivam its not in class 10.But the question came in NTSE so just wanted to know what it is basically. smile
by the way in which class are you now?


friendship is tan 90°.

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#19 2013-12-06 20:13:19

bob bundy
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Registered: 2010-06-20
Posts: 6,536

Re: quantum nos.

Stefy wrote:

I have only one correction -- h=5*.

Thanks.  Just a typo; phew.  I have changed it.

Bob


You cannot teach a man anything;  you can only help him find it within himself..........Galileo Galilei

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#20 2013-12-09 05:02:28

ShivamS
Member
Registered: 2011-02-07
Posts: 3,630

Re: quantum nos.

Agnishom wrote:

Thanks for explaining.

Shivam: Do you have an idea about where ICSE books can be downloaded from

Unfortunately I couldn't find any downloadable online version of those books. But, I think you can safely assume that they are pretty similar to NCERT. By the end of 12th, you have pretty much covered the same material from CBSE, CISCE and the state boards.     



Nikarika, I am in university.

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#21 2013-12-11 01:43:12

niharika_kumar
Member
From: Numeraland
Registered: 2013-02-12
Posts: 1,028

Re: quantum nos.

oh, i see.
may I know which year and course?


friendship is tan 90°.

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#22 2013-12-11 05:36:12

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,673

Re: quantum nos.

Also, because I did not see Bob mention it, the magnetic Q.N. describes the direction of angular momentum.


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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#23 2013-12-11 11:00:39

ShivamS
Member
Registered: 2011-02-07
Posts: 3,630

Re: quantum nos.

niharika_kumar wrote:

oh, i see.
may I know which year and course?

I took a bit of a weird route but technically am second year biology student.

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#24 2013-12-11 21:52:58

niharika_kumar
Member
From: Numeraland
Registered: 2013-02-12
Posts: 1,028

Re: quantum nos.

biology student in mathisfunforum?
sounds really weird.


friendship is tan 90°.

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#25 2013-12-12 04:25:14

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,673

Re: quantum nos.

Why is it weird that people have various interests?


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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