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#1 2013-03-02 17:02:23

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

A number problem.

Hi;

This one was posed in another thread and solved there by anonimnystefy.

Find the smallest natural number for which, if you move its last digit to the beginning, you get a number that is 6 times the original. Or prove that no such number can exist.

We will follow his fine idea and see how we can utilize a CAS to help.

Suppose there were a 3 digit number that was the answer then:

or

No insight yet on the problem so we try a 4 digit number.

One more a 5 digit number:

We see a pattern developing and this is an important part of experimental mathematics.

The pattern is there is always a multiple of 59 on the left and a predictable form of 10^k - 6 on the right.

We know that

We also know that a0 which is the front digit of the new number must be one of these {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}.

The whole thing now presents itself as an algorithm that leads to this pseudocode:

1) Begin k loop

2) h = 10^k - 6 / 59

3) Times h by 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and see if the products are integers.

4) Yes they are, print k  and stop

5) They are not go back to 1.

Last edited by bobbym (2013-03-02 17:32:08)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

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#2 2013-03-02 19:44:59

Agnishom
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From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
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Re: A number problem.

Is k the number of digits?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

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#3 2013-03-02 19:49:01

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

Hi;

The answers are 58 digits long, but k+1 is the number of digits.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#4 2013-03-02 20:37:51

Agnishom
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From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
Website

Re: A number problem.

Is k coming as 16? hmm


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#5 2013-03-02 20:42:11

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

Hi;

You probably got that answer because of precision problems.
Your programming language is just not carrying enough digits. You need to have a language that has higher precision than 17 significant digits.

When I invented this problem I had no idea that such an answer would be necessary.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#6 2013-03-02 20:47:57

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
Website

Re: A number problem.

I never knew python is that bad

I will import decimal module and do again


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#7 2013-03-02 20:48:56

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

Does python support big integer arithmetic?


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#8 2013-03-02 20:52:38

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
Website

Re: A number problem.

Ya good, Thank You I am getting 57

P.S: Defining numbers in Python isn't a problem at all. How big do you want your integer to be?

Last edited by Agnishom (2013-03-02 20:54:36)


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#9 2013-03-02 20:53:36

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

That is correct, for the first part!


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#10 2013-03-02 20:55:29

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
Website

Re: A number problem.

Hmm... Let me see if I can find the number


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#11 2013-03-02 20:56:22

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

There is a little trick, you will have to refer to the math in post #1.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#12 2013-03-02 21:05:32

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
Website

Re: A number problem.

1694915254237288135593220338983050847457627118644067796610169491525423728813559322033898305084745762711864406779661
169491525423728813559322033898305084745762711864406779661

Is that it?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#13 2013-03-02 21:08:13

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
Website

Re: A number problem.

I am close but something is wrong hmm


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#14 2013-03-02 21:09:55

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

Hi;

The great part of doing this type of work is that you never need to ask that question. You always have an
infallible way to know. Did you check that number?


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#15 2013-03-02 21:23:38

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
Website

Re: A number problem.

Answer:

A. 1694915254237288135593220338983050847457627118644067796601

B. Something is still wrong hmm

But B is 116 digits long

Last edited by Agnishom (2013-03-02 21:28:05)


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#16 2013-03-02 21:30:26

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

Hi;

Do not worry, we will sort it all out.

You remember from the math:

The a0 can take any value from 1 - 9. You only picked 1. The left has every digit except for a0. When you choose
a digit for a0 it goes on the back of the number.

Last edited by bobbym (2013-03-02 21:30:57)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#17 2013-03-02 21:36:02

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
Website

Re: A number problem.

you wrote:

3) Times h by 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and see if the products are integers.

Isn't this number of times the value of a_0?


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#18 2013-03-02 21:37:22

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

Hi;

It is a0!


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#19 2013-03-02 22:34:44

Agnishom
Real Member
From: The Complex Plane
Registered: 2011-01-29
Posts: 15,964
Website

Re: A number problem.

(10^57 - 6)*1 / 59 is an Integer.

So why won't 1 serve as a0?

Last edited by Agnishom (2013-03-02 22:37:14)


'And fun? If maths is fun, then getting a tooth extraction is fun. A viral infection is fun. Rabies shots are fun.'
'God exists because Mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists because we cannot prove it'
'Humanity is still kept intact. It remains within.' -Alokananda

Online

#20 2013-03-02 22:40:13

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

It sure could but that does not mean it solves the problem. As a matter of fact that are 4 solutions in this area.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#21 2013-03-02 22:43:54

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,401

Re: A number problem.

My solution was with a0=6 and a0=9.


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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#22 2013-03-02 22:44:21

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

There are 2 more solutions.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#23 2013-03-02 23:06:22

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,401

Re: A number problem.

I figured that out. And I think that I will be able to find them as soon as I look at my notebook.


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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#24 2013-03-02 23:14:13

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 84,681

Re: A number problem.

Once Agnishom figures it out then I can post another one.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.
I have the result, but I do not yet know how to get it.
All physicists, and a good many quite respectable mathematicians are contemptuous about proof.

Online

#25 2013-03-02 23:26:23

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,401

Re: A number problem.

I have a feeling it will be monstrous.


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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