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#1 2009-12-23 20:17:52

bill_ghatis
Guest

Number Daisy and Proof?

http://nrich.maths.org/786

I can get up to 42. But what is the maximum number and how can I prove it? :s so  confused help please

#2 2009-12-24 00:34:13

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi Bill;

42 seems pretty good. I believe the upper bound is 63, but am not sure. Anyway, with the geometric stipulation of only using neighbors I couldn't do better than 37.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#3 2009-12-24 03:15:03

mathsyperson
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-22
Posts: 4,900

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

You can improve the upper bound by considering how many pieces can be made.

There are 32 that include the centre. (No restrictions on which of the 5 petals can be included, so the amount is 2^5)

For arrangements excluding the centre, there are also 5 ways of taking one petal, 5 of taking 2, 5 of 3, 5 of 4 and 1 of 5. This is another 21.

Therefore, there are only 53 different combinations available and so that is an upper bound.

My first interpretation of the puzzle was that any two petals had to be connected via the centre. If we use that interpretation, then we have an upper bound of 37.


Why did the vector cross the road?
It wanted to be normal.

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#4 2009-12-24 11:30:23

bobbym
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From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi mathsyperson;

I meant 63 as the upper bound for 1,2,4,8,16,32 as the sum for 6 numbers. He can represent 1 to 42 by his six mystery numbers he has found using the rules.
Happy holiday!


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Online

#5 2009-12-24 13:37:07

phrontister
Real Member
From: The Land of Tomorrow
Registered: 2009-07-12
Posts: 3,853

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

I tried it with 1,2,4,8,16,32 but couldn't do it. The best I got was 44, using these numbers:


"The good news about computers is that they do what you tell them to do. The bad news is that they do what you tell them to do." - Ted Nelson

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#6 2009-12-24 14:53:56

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi phrontister;

What positions did you use those numbers in?


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Online

#7 2009-12-24 15:39:15

phrontister
Real Member
From: The Land of Tomorrow
Registered: 2009-07-12
Posts: 3,853

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi Bobby,

This is it:

View Image: Number Daisy.png

"The good news about computers is that they do what you tell them to do. The bad news is that they do what you tell them to do." - Ted Nelson

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#8 2009-12-24 16:25:57

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi phrontister;

That's close but you can't make a 41.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Online

#9 2009-12-24 17:26:59

phrontister
Real Member
From: The Land of Tomorrow
Registered: 2009-07-12
Posts: 3,853

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi Bobby,

Yes, 41 is possible: 8 + 17 + 12 + 4 = 41

Here's how I got them all:

I used T&E to find the six numbers.

I think 1, 2, 4 & 8 are essential for the first four numbers, and a central 1, surrounded by 8 > 2 > 4, gives the highest score: 11.

So that gives 12 (or something lower) for the fifth number.

12 succeeds right up to 19, and I then tested for the sixth number, starting with 28 (one greater than the sum of the other numbers) and working down. 17 is the first one that works up to the sum of all six numbers.

I doubt that number 1 would succeed anywhere but in the centre, as probably all the other numbers need access to it at some stage or other, which would not be possible if it were placed on the outer ring.   

I wonder what the max is.

Last edited by phrontister (2009-12-24 19:25:41)


"The good news about computers is that they do what you tell them to do. The bad news is that they do what you tell them to do." - Ted Nelson

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#10 2009-12-24 19:21:56

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi phrontister;

pensif_3.gif

Yes, I just got that now. You did go up to 44 a new record!


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Online

#11 2009-12-24 22:01:33

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

This yields 45! What is unique is that the 1 is not in the center.

View Image: NumberDaisy_124567.gif

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Online

#12 2009-12-24 22:14:19

phrontister
Real Member
From: The Land of Tomorrow
Registered: 2009-07-12
Posts: 3,853

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Xlnt, Bobby! smile

I thought of trying the 2 in the centre but didn't give it much thought, and gave up at the first hurdle. sad


"The good news about computers is that they do what you tell them to do. The bad news is that they do what you tell them to do." - Ted Nelson

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#13 2009-12-24 22:46:01

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi;

46 !

Nope! Mathsyperson found an error. Upon checking the program I had a logic error. Corrected that. So the 45 is good, the 46 is not!

View Image: NumberDaisy2.gif

In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Online

#14 2009-12-25 06:06:41

mathsyperson
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-22
Posts: 4,900

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

The 45 flower is very impressive!
Unfortunately, I don't think the next one can make 21.


Why did the vector cross the road?
It wanted to be normal.

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#15 2009-12-25 11:00:07

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

True! Have corrected the program and added to the the incorrect post.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Online

#16 2009-12-26 01:07:02

phrontister
Real Member
From: The Land of Tomorrow
Registered: 2009-07-12
Posts: 3,853

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

I think I found a 46! smile

View Image: Daisy_46.jpg

Last edited by phrontister (2009-12-26 01:29:32)


"The good news about computers is that they do what you tell them to do. The bad news is that they do what you tell them to do." - Ted Nelson

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#17 2009-12-26 01:36:00

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

You sure did! I think that is maximum.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Online

#18 2010-08-01 21:49:12

nombredaisy
Guest

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

i have this problem too,but how do you prove this? i cant get over 46...................

#19 2010-08-01 22:27:20

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 88,694

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi nombredaisy;

No one could beat the 46 and we think that is maximum. Welcome to the forum!

If you have a different 46, then please post it.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

Online

#20 2014-06-03 21:08:08

drdangerlove
Member
Registered: 2014-06-03
Posts: 2

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

phrontister wrote:

I think I found a 46! smile

How did you go about finding this solution? Did you work in some systematic way?

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#21 2014-06-04 01:12:06

phrontister
Real Member
From: The Land of Tomorrow
Registered: 2009-07-12
Posts: 3,853

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi drdangerlove, and welcome to the forum! smile

I used T&E, sprinkled with a smattering of logic and system...as I described in post #9.


"The good news about computers is that they do what you tell them to do. The bad news is that they do what you tell them to do." - Ted Nelson

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#22 2014-06-11 20:32:30

drdangerlove
Member
Registered: 2014-06-03
Posts: 2

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

phrontister wrote:

Hi drdangerlove, and welcome to the forum! smile

I used T&E, sprinkled with a smattering of logic and system...as I described in post #9.

Thanks. I'm trying to explain different ways of working mathematically to some maths students so the ways in which these types of problems are tackled is of great interest to me.

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#23 2014-06-12 00:35:30

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,602

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hi guys, wouldn't it be better if there was a 20 instead of a 19 there? You can then get up to 47.


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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#24 2014-06-12 01:23:58

zetafunc
Member
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 118

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

anonimnystefy wrote:

Hi guys, wouldn't it be better if there was a 20 instead of a 19 there? You can then get up to 47.

How would you make 22 and 24?

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#25 2014-06-12 01:41:22

anonimnystefy
Real Member
From: The Foundation
Registered: 2011-05-23
Posts: 15,602

Re: Number Daisy and Proof?

Hm, I don't know, but how do you make a 21 with that one?


“Here lies the reader who will never open this book. He is forever dead.

“Taking a new step, uttering a new word, is what people fear most.” ― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

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