Discussion about math, puzzles, games and fun. Useful symbols: ÷ × ½ √ ∞ ≠ ≤ ≥ ≈ ⇒ ± ∈ Δ θ ∴ ∑ ∫ π -¹ ² ³ °

You are not logged in.

- Topics: Active | Unanswered

Pages: **1**

**MathGuise****Banned**- Registered: 2009-06-25
- Posts: 6

When Computers can Calculate to the End of the Chess game tree,which is only a matter of time! They will answer an important Question,is the game of Chess for the first player to move,a Win,draw,or Loss.

My personal opinion is that it will be a DRAW! Just like Noughts & Crosses and some other Board games,where it is possible to Calculate perfectly to the End.

Any thoughts on this!?...

Offline

**MathsIsFun****Administrator**- Registered: 2005-01-21
- Posts: 7,660

That is a very interesting question. Draw does seem likely, as I have seen balanced endgames that were draws.

But first I must ask ... how close ARE computers to calculating the game tree? I remember reading somewhere that it is quite large.

"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..." - Leon M. Lederman

Offline

**integer****Member**- Registered: 2008-02-21
- Posts: 79

The total computation is enormous.

The first step is to get the pieces to a point of asymmetry.

As long as the pieces are symmetrical (mirror image) than

only a draw is possible.

When a capture is made, and symmetry is lost, then opportunites

for win/loss are possible. It is possible to place the pieces into

asymmetry without capture.

The difficult problem is to evaluate positions from that point.

Some players can lose no matter how strong their position happens to be.

Offline

**bobbym****bumpkin**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606

Hi MathGuise;

Highly unlikely that they will enumerate the entire game tree as it is > 10^50 possible positions. There are also games like nim where who goes first or second is decisive. In chess the advantage of the first move is meaningful. Everyone would rather have white because white has the edge. No one knows whether with absolutely correct play whether white can win by force or black can draw. My personal feeling is that black has a laborious draw with correct play.

*Last edited by bobbym (2009-06-26 06:38:04)*

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.****If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.**** Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.**

Offline

**mathsyperson****Moderator**- Registered: 2005-06-22
- Posts: 4,900

Is there a proof that black can't force a win, or is it just intuitively likely?

Also, you might find this interesting.

It's a Chess game that tells you what the computer is thinking.

Why did the vector cross the road?

It wanted to be normal.

Offline

**bobbym****bumpkin**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606

Hi mathsyperson;

Just intuitively likely. Thanks for the link!

Here is a link to play shredder, one of the strongest players in the world.

http://www.shredderchess.com/play-chess-online.html

*Last edited by bobbym (2009-06-26 06:44:12)*

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.****If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.**** Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.**

Offline

**iamfriendly****Member**- Registered: 2009-07-03
- Posts: 72

Well I think the computer is smarter than the most of us here. The software programmers programmed the chess software to try their best and win us

EYE AM FRIENDLY, THAT'S O U NEED 2 NO,

psst,

Don't trust strangers, EYE AM FRIENDLY, THAT'S O U NEED 2 NO ..........psst, Don't trust strangers......

Offline

**iamfriendly****Member**- Registered: 2009-07-03
- Posts: 72

Also I have win quite a couple times where I played against other people and won by black.

EYE AM FRIENDLY, THAT'S O U NEED 2 NO,

psst,

Don't trust strangers, EYE AM FRIENDLY, THAT'S O U NEED 2 NO ..........psst, Don't trust strangers......

Offline

**bobbym****bumpkin**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606

Hi iamfriendly;

Nice to meet you and welcome to the forum. I also prefer the black pieces when playing humans up to about 2000 USCF (FIDE 1900) rated. Higher than that White enjoys about a 2 to 1 advantage when it comes to winning.

My question is: How do you define smarter?

*Last edited by bobbym (2009-07-06 08:07:11)*

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.****If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.**** Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.**

Offline

**MathGuise****Banned**- Registered: 2009-06-25
- Posts: 6

When the Chess Game Tree is finally solved! one of the most interesting Questions will be answered...which opening is the Best this debate has been going on for a long time,and also...

(1) Will there be only one way for the Computer to show a Draw! If that is the final

outcome.

(2) How many Moves will it take to Reach a Draw! The average Chess Game takes between 40 to 60 Moves maybe it will take 50 Moves then... or 100?

(3) Will the Computer find a new Opening that has never been played before! I think this is very unlikely considering how many registered games have been played,the most common first Moves are E2-E4,D2-D4,C2-C4,G1-F3,B1-C3,G2-G3,B2-B3 or will the Computers first move be a strange Flank Opening like H2-H4,A2-A4,G2-G4,B2-B4, it might just show another Draw this way?

(4) One thing will come from this is that the Chess World will have a 100% accurate Referee to decide unfinished Games,is this a Good or Bad thing? maybe it will take away some of the Mystery,Interest, when not knowing the total Outcome kept past Games alive! Chess has always had a Hidden Beauty about it...

Offline

**bobbym****bumpkin**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606

Hi MathGuise;

MathGuise wrote:

When the Chess Game Tree is finally solved! one of the most interesting Questions will be answered...which opening is the Best this debate has been going on for a long time,and also...

If you mean fully enumerating the game tree that is not likely. Fastest machines today can generate about 1 000 000 000 positions per second. The number of branches in the game tree of chess is 10^50. Some experts feel it is more like 10^120. Let's go with the lower bound. At a billion positions a second it would take 3.1709* 10^33 years to list them all. To store them we would need to turn every atom in our universe into a memory location capable of storing an entire 64 square board with pieces on it. Not likely.

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.****If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.**** Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.**

Offline

**Ricky****Moderator**- Registered: 2005-12-04
- Posts: 3,791

MathGuise was Anthony R. Brown, again harassing the forums.

"In the real world, this would be a problem. But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist. So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

Offline

**bobbym****bumpkin**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606

Hi Ricky;

I know.

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.****If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.**** Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.**

Offline

**iamfriendly****Member**- Registered: 2009-07-03
- Posts: 72

Can anybody tell me more about the Deep Blue ? like how does it work, i heard that's the most intelligent chess computer

EYE AM FRIENDLY, THAT'S O U NEED 2 NO,

psst,

Don't trust strangers, EYE AM FRIENDLY, THAT'S O U NEED 2 NO ..........psst, Don't trust strangers......

Offline

**bobbym****bumpkin**- From: Bumpkinland
- Registered: 2009-04-12
- Posts: 109,606

Hi iamfriendly;

Deep Blue is no longer the best. Supposedly Hydra is but no one can beat Rybka 3.0 - 4.0.

**In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.****If it ain't broke, fix it until it is.**** Always satisfy the Prime Directive of getting the right answer above all else.**

Offline

**devian18****Member**- Registered: 2009-02-24
- Posts: 12

this is hard

Offline

Pages: **1**