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#1 2008-11-15 12:37:07

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,552

Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

A passion, plus 10,000 Hours, is what you need!

Great Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/no … rs-extract


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

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#2 2008-11-16 12:29:45

John E. Franklin
Member
Registered: 2005-08-29
Posts: 3,573

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Looks like it is both. 
Yes, fun article to read!


igloo myrtilles fourmis

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#3 2008-11-16 12:52:03

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,552

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

I think the message is: if you really like a subject, and have some skill in it, then devote thousands of hours to it and you can become a master.


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

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#4 2008-11-17 02:12:23

ganesh
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-28
Posts: 15,168

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

John E. Franklin wrote:

Looks like it is both.

I agree with John. I was once told genius is 99% perspiration and 1 % inspiration. But a more reasonable figure according to me is genius is 60% perspiration and 40% inspiration !


Character is who you are when no one is looking.

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#5 2008-11-18 12:40:33

Amalcas
Member
Registered: 2008-11-18
Posts: 8

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

I'll play the devil's advocate: the study mentioned in no way proves that hard work is the key to success. Simply put, the study is retrospective; no causality is established, only correlation. It may very well be that it is genius that inspires students of a subject to work hard, or there may be an outside cause for both. Disregarding outside causes, however, the lack of any contradictions to the rule suggests--by common sense, not statistics--that work is the cause, though I would like to know how many students were included in the study.
Getting more to my own opinions, I think that "genius," possessing high abilities in the basic functioning that contributes to skill in a subject, is necessary to be truly exceptional. However, without considerable work, such innate talent won't get you very far at all; hard work is ultimately more important, especially since it's the only thing you can change. Furthermore, a hard worker with less talent is generally more likely to eventually eclipse a more lax yet talented individual, who will only excel at low levels. And as to why there were no exceptions to the correlation in the violinist set, the simplest answer is that they all had considerable innate talent--after all, they were students at a prestigious university--so the major division would in fact be the degree of effort.
On the other hand, passion and 10,000 spare hours is going to make you pretty good at most anything, independent of how much innate "talent" you have contributing to the task.

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#6 2008-11-29 01:11:31

x.gurl.x
Member
Registered: 2008-11-29
Posts: 1

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Genius is Hardwork.
Btw How Did You Get An Avatar And A Signature?

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#7 2008-11-29 02:15:45

ganesh
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-28
Posts: 15,168

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

x.gurl.x,
Go to Profile on the topof the page. Go to Personality in the profile menu.
Check the checkbox Use avatar in order to show the avatar in all your posts. The avatar can be uploaded from your PC.
Similarly, you may compose your signature which would appear in all your posts.

Both the avatar and signature can be modified at any time later.

Finally, click Submit.


Character is who you are when no one is looking.

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#8 2009-01-11 16:58:48

wasabi
Member
Registered: 2008-08-14
Posts: 5

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

In my opinion before we can realize whether a person is genius or not I just wonder how much time and effort the parent put in to make the kid becoming a genius.
In my case, comparing to my older sister , I am not smart enough but i realise when i grow up I am not as good as her just because my parent did not invest on me when i was a kid. Considering i have to learn everything by myself (10, 000 hours + lots of tear + lots of headache) i think i am a genius already !! roflol
Wasabi = Macy
tongue


Get out of your comfort zone to see the brighter horizon

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#9 2009-06-02 23:32:43

MathGenius1
Member
Registered: 2009-05-27
Posts: 11

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

A Genius is Born a Genius! the problems are will the person make it through life in a normal way!...

There must have been hundreds if not thousands of Genius's Born, that had their life cut short by poverty and or an unlucky childhood etc. Life just ain't fair!

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#10 2009-06-03 19:23:28

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,663

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

True, but I have seen cases of people who just wanted it so badly that they succeeded in reprogramming their mind. Either they suffered mental breakdowns or they achieved a level of proficiency much higher than everyone else.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#11 2009-06-03 22:41:46

MathGenius1
Member
Registered: 2009-05-27
Posts: 11

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Quote:
bobbym

True, but I have seen cases of people who just wanted it so badly that they succeeded in reprogramming their mind. Either they suffered mental breakdowns or they achieved a level of proficiency much higher than everyone else.

MathGenius1

Natural Genius...is a lot different to Forced Genius!

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#12 2009-06-04 11:44:43

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,663

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Hi MathGenius1;

Natural Genius...is a lot different to Forced Genius!

I'll have to take your word on that.

I was speaking of endeavors where it was easy to quantify ability. Intellectually compettitve games like chess, go, checkers and poker.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#13 2009-06-04 23:41:58

MathGenius1
Member
Registered: 2009-05-27
Posts: 11

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Quote:
bobbym

I'll have to take your word on that.

I was speaking of endeavours where it was easy to quantify ability. Intellectually competitive games like chess, go, checkers and poker.

Mathgenius1

Chess is a very good example to show the difference between Natural Genius and Forced Genius,a Natural Chess Genius will look at a board position and make the correct move very quickly,they would not be calculating as such,a Forced Genius would look at the same position and take longer to find the correct move,because they would be referring to what they have learnt and would be calculating! This difference may not show up at first,but later when both players are tired,the Forced Genius would start to make mistakes! A bit like a computer running out of memory.

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#14 2009-06-05 17:45:32

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,663

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Hi Mathgenius1;

  Yes it is a good example. Take the 1927 World Championship between Jose Raoul Capablanca and Alexander Alekhine. Capablanca, a prodigy, loads of natural talent, great intuition and speed. Alekhine, hard worker, dedicated, typified by preparation and analysis. Total victory for Alekhine even though he was slightly slower. His ideas were deeper and  more accurate.


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#15 2009-06-05 23:48:44

MathGenius1
Member
Registered: 2009-05-27
Posts: 11

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Quote:
bobbym

Yes it is a good example. Take the 1927 World Championship between Jose Raoul Capablanca and Alexander Alekhine. Capablanca, a prodigy, loads of natural talent, great intuition and speed. Alekhine, hard worker, dedicated, typified by preparation and analysis. Total victory for Alekhine even though he was slightly slower. His ideas were deeper and  more accurate.

MathGenius1

Your counter example is Good? Except you are forgetting a prodigy is not necessarily a 100% Natural Genius! such prodigy's regarding Chess do suffer from mental problems when someone is constantly being negative towards them which is what  Alekhine done to him!
Computers are becoming Genius at Chess...one day when they can calculate the game tree from start to finish,they would have become 100% Genius in that area! Even though they can beat 99% of all players they are not quite there yet.

MG1

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#16 2009-06-06 18:30:16

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,663

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Hi MG1;

If a prodigy is not an example of a natural genius then what is?

Even though computers can now beat all human players ( including the last couple of world champions) there is no hope that they ever will be able to calculate the entire game tree, combinatorial explosion prohibits that. Also having a lot of personal experience playing them there style is too artificial to ever assign the phrase genius to it. Accurate yes, but not genius.

Last edited by bobbym (2009-06-07 23:25:28)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#17 2009-06-07 22:32:37

MathGenius1
Member
Registered: 2009-05-27
Posts: 11

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Quote:
bobbym

If a prodigy is not an example of a natural genius then what is?

Even though computers can now beat all human players ( including the last couple of world champions) there is no hope that they ever will be able to calculate the entire game tree,
combinatorial explosion prohibits that. Also having a lot of personal experience playing them there style is to artificial to ever assign the phrase genius to it. Accurate yes, but not genius.

MG1

The above Quotes show you know little about Chess! and Computers!

A prodigy is a Natural Genius but not necessarily a 100% Genius! They make mistakes because they are Human! when situations affect them or in most cases other Humans.

Ever is a very,very,long time! To calculate the entire game tree regarding Chess for a Computer,in the future,which is a very,very,long time! Will be no problem for them,no more difficult than the entire game tree for Noughts & Crosses.
Computers are gradually solving all Human board games,the biggest milestone so far is the Canadian Checkers program Chinook,the game of checkers has roughly 500 billion billion possible positions ( Department of Computing Science, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta T6G 2E8, Canada.).

The reason you think Chess Computers play in an Artificial way is I'm sure because you have tried to outsmart them,by maybe playing three sacrifices etc. then waiting for a response you expect!
Computers don't care they don't have the same feelings to respond to false pressure put on them,they will calculate correctly regardless to what ever you do! Then turn the tables on you at the moment you least expect it,it's very hard now to rattle a top Chess program into making mistakes,by being sneaky or extra aggressive like we could in the past!
When all Humans play against a Chess Computer and it wins 100% percent of the time! And plays perfect Chess! Then to say it's not Genius is worse than Foolish!

MathGenius1

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#18 2009-06-07 22:38:15

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,663

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Hi MG1;

MG1 wrote:

The above Quotes show you know little about Chess! and Computers!

Now that is one of the smartest things anyone on this forum has said to me. If you would have included math in the things I know nothing about, it would have been genius.

MG1 wrote:

Will be no problem for them,no more difficult than the entire game tree for Noughts & Crosses.

It is not like noughts and crosses which has a small game tree of 9!. The game tree for chess is 10^50 or larger. No conceivable computer could possibly enumerate it or store it.

No one or no thing could ever play perfect chess. The alpha-beta algorithm ( an improvement on the minimax algorithm) guarantees finding a good move, no one knows what the absolute best move is.


Also I am primarily a positional player and do not sack pieces unless it leads to mate.

MG1 wrote:

Then to say it's not Genius is worse than Foolish!

Wikipedia wrote:

A genius is someone who successfully applies a previously unknown technique in the production of a work of art, science, or calculation, or who masters and personalizes a known technique. A genius possesses great intelligence and remarkable abilities in a specific subject or shows an exceptional natural capacity of intellect and/or ability, especially in the production of creative and original work, something that has never been seen or evaluated previously. Traits often associated with genius include strong individuality, imagination, uniqueness, and innovative drive[citation needed].

The term may be applied to someone who is considered gifted in many subjects[1] or in one subject.

Although the term "genius" is sometimes used to denote the possession of a superior talent in any field, e.g. a particular sport or statesmanship, it has traditionally been understood to denote an exceptional natural capacity of intellect and creative originality in areas of art, literature, philosophy, music, language, science and mathematics.

As you can see from the above quote a genius is a person, never a machine.

Last edited by bobbym (2009-06-14 02:04:50)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#19 2009-06-08 03:58:23

MathGenius1
Member
Registered: 2009-05-27
Posts: 11

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Quote:

Now that is one of the smartest things anyone on this forum has said to me. If you would have included math in the things I know nothing about, it would have been genius.

MG1

Sorry of course should have been obvious!  The above Quotes show you know little about Chess!  Computers! And Math!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is not like noughts and crosses which has a small game tree of 9!. The game tree for chess is 10^60 or larger. No conceivable computer could possibly enumerate it or store it.

MG1

10^1000,000 + will all be possible!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No one or no thing could ever play perfect chess. The alpha-beta algorithm ( an improvement on the minimax algorithm) guarantees finding a good move, no one knows what the absolute best move is.

MG1

They beat 99% of all Humans at the moment! That's pretty good for not finding the best moves so far! As I said before only a matter of time for the absolute best moves..as with when the complete Game Tree is solved!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also I am primarily a positional player and do not sack pieces unless it leads to mate.

MG1

I would love to see an example Game of yours! What's the point in sacking a piece and then letting the Computer mate you? You might as well play on longer in hope!


Wikipedia wrote:

A genius is someone who successfully applies a previously unknown technique in the production of a work of art, science, or calculation, or who masters and personalizes a known technique.etc.

As you can see from the above quote a genius is a person, never a machine.
MG1

As  for your Quote above and from Wikipedia,it's about time they updated their knowledge base! Constantly they are putting information on their site that is wrong! For this example they and you are forgetting that Computers are made by Humans!
Another classic example is the Quote on their site that Infinite/Recurring 0.9 = 1 when the more Intellectual know!...if something is  Infinite/Recurring it must stay the same continuously from how it started! i.e. 0.9 must always equal 0.9 with an  Infinite/Recurring difference of 0.1 to ever becoming equal to 1

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#20 2009-06-08 12:43:04

jimmyR
Member
Registered: 2009-05-29
Posts: 143

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

is "incomprehensible jibberish" too strong of a phrase for this forum???

MG1: 10^1,000,000+  (whoa)

also, bobbym seems to know quite a bit about chess and its history.
also, bobbym seems to know quite a bit about computers.
also, bobbym seems to know quite a bit about math.

best wishes to all,
jimmyR

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#21 2009-06-08 14:32:31

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,663

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Hi MG1;

MG1 wrote:

Sorry of course should have been obvious!  The above Quotes show you know little about Chess!  Computers! And Math!

You forgot that my German is terrible!

Really now! 10^1 000 000 + thats a joke right.

MG1 wrote:
bobbym wrote:

Also I am primarily a positional player and do not sack pieces unless it leads to mate.

I would love to see an example Game of yours! What's the point in sacking a piece and then letting the Computer mate you? You might as well play on longer in hope!

I was referring to a combination which is a sack of one or more pieces to checkmate the opponent. Positional players don't usually sack a piece unless it leads to an immediate win.

MG1 wrote:

As  for your Quote above and from Wikipedia,it's about time they updated their knowledge base! Constantly they are putting information on their site that is wrong! For this example they and you are forgetting that Computers are made by Humans!
Another classic example is the Quote on their site that Infinite/Recurring 0.9 = 1 when the more Intellectual know!...if something is  Infinite/Recurring it must stay the same continuously from how it started! i.e. 0.9 must always equal 0.9 with an  Infinite/Recurring difference of 0.1 to ever becoming equal to 1

Perhaps some of their stuff is incorrect but much isn't. Yes, computers are made by humans. Geniuses are human, computers do not fit the definition of a genius.

MG1 wrote:

They beat 99% of all Humans at the moment!

Computers already beat the best humans: The last match 3 programs versus 3 former world champions, the final score 8 to 4 favor of the programs

I am sorry but I am one of those people that feels that .9999999999999... = 1. Can't debate it here.  Please stick to the premise of the thread.

Also go, which has a much larger game tree then chess( ≈ 10^170 or more) has been much more difficult for computers. Alpha-beta pruning, razoring, singular extensions and all the other tricks have not been able to prune the tree to a manageable size. As far as I know the best humans can trounce the best programs.

Last edited by bobbym (2009-06-08 15:50:24)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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#22 2009-06-08 22:41:03

MathGenius1
Member
Registered: 2009-05-27
Posts: 11

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Quote:
jimmR

is "incomprehensible jibberish" too strong of a phrase for this forum???

MathGenius#

Looks like what you have posted is to me aswell!

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#23 2009-06-08 23:14:57

MathGenius1
Member
Registered: 2009-05-27
Posts: 11

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Quote:
bobbym

You forgot that my German is terrible!

MG1

Sorry of course should have been obvious!  The above Quotes show you know little about Chess!  Computers! Math! And German!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Really now! 10^1 000 000 + thats a joke right.

MG1

I know many jokes and comedians but this one I missed...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was referring to a combination which is a sack of one or more pieces to checkmate the opponent. Positional players don't usually sack a piece unless it leads to an immediate win.

MG1

But you are a special kind of player! So I would expect you to do just that.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps some of their stuff is incorrect but much isn't. Yes, computers are made by humans. Geniuses are human, computers do not fit the definition of a genius.

MG1

Again they and you need your Knowledge base's updated! Computers are becoming Genius in many Scientific area's including Math Theorems! Science! Medicine! Etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Computers already beat the best humans: The last match 3 programs versus 3 former world champions, the final score 8 to 4 favor of the programs

MG1

Enough said!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sorry but I am one of those people that feels that .9999999999999... = 1. Can't debate it here.  Please stick to the premise of the thread.

MG1

No problem just making a point about how incompetent Wikipedia is!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also go, which has a much larger game tree then chess( ≈ 10^170 or more) has been much more difficult for computers. Alpha-beta pruning, razoring, singular extensions and all the other tricks have not been able to prune the tree to a manageable size. As far as I know the best humans can trounce the best programs.

MG1

At the moment they can! But again only a matter of time! The game of GO is being solved slowly by using advanced Pattern recognition techniques! Plus look up tables input by some of the worlds best players!...

MathGenius#

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#24 2009-06-09 00:41:14

MathsIsFun
Administrator
Registered: 2005-01-21
Posts: 7,552

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

Hi MathGenius1 ... are you the member formerly known as Anthony.R.Brown?


"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God ..."  - Leon M. Lederman

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#25 2009-06-11 07:39:16

bobbym
Administrator
From: Bumpkinland
Registered: 2009-04-12
Posts: 90,663

Re: Is Genius a Gift or Hard Work?

MG1 wrote:

But you are a special kind of player! So I would expect you to do just that.

No, I said I am primarily a positional player.

MG1 wrote:

Again they and you need your Knowledge base's updated! Computers are becoming Genius in many Scientific area's including Math Theorems! Science! Medicine! Etc.

The artificial intelligence community rates a computers intelligence at between a paramecium and a cricket. Hardly a genius, but they do have nice personalities.

MG1 wrote:

At the moment they can! But again only a matter of time! The game of GO is being solved slowly by using advanced Pattern recognition techniques! Plus look up tables input by some of the worlds best players!...

Yes, just a matter of time, but who is the genius the programmers or the machine?

Last edited by bobbym (2009-06-11 07:44:34)


In mathematics, you don't understand things. You just get used to them.

I agree with you regarding the satisfaction and importance of actually computing some numbers. I can't tell you how often I see time and money wasted because someone didn't bother to run the numbers.

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