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#26 2008-10-10 06:57:46

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

PS I don't pretend to be the one who won!!!
Because we are simply talking about a ttheme,and there is no winner!!!
Actually we where talking about it.Not any more


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#27 2008-10-10 08:27:59

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Religion with science

Of course I want to have a discution with you(a talk),bevause you have very good question!!!!!!!

It's better for us to close this discution about religion.

You continue to contradict yourself.

Let us change the topic.

Remember, it is not just you and I that are on this forum, others may want to discuss ideas presented here, or present new ones entirely.  If you want to talk about a different topic, it is best to start another thread.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

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#28 2008-10-10 09:34:44

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

I AM NOT CONTRADICTING MY SELF.

You don't understand because you think as like you read.Words have a lot of meanings.
When I said that I want to continue to have a talk with you and to change the topic,I was speaking of talking for something else.

You do always the same thing.You read the text,you try to find an "error" in the text and the "errors" that you take,you take them as they are writed.You don't think what is the true meaning of the words that are writted


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#29 2008-10-10 09:38:17

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

DO not take this like an insult to you,because I respect people,but it's just that you are doing always the same thing!!!


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#30 2008-10-10 09:52:48

Chewy
Member
Registered: 2008-08-07
Posts: 67

Re: Religion with science

G_Einstein,

While I respect everything you have written, I could carry very similar "proofs" of my own with the Bible. I won't bother, because, as was my point I made before this earlier in the thread, it is all relative. I agree with Ricky in his quote:

You are reinterpreting the words of the Koran so that they fit the science.

Referring to what I said about God, my words : 

....hey I do exist and here's proof that I exist....

This wasn't a question, it was a statement. I was saying that I feel that MAYBE God might have said to himself, "I exist, and I will put proof throughout the universe, in the form of the Golden Ratio, or Golden Mean, for even non-believers to see, to see that I DO exist."

These were NOT God's words, just my own speculation as to why we see such similarities throughout the universe that are in proportion to Phi.Basically I am saying what if God did this so humans could see as proof that God exists. Kind of like a "fingerprint" or signature from God. This would have all been done long before the birth of Jesus.

Ganesh made some excellent points, when he mentioned the 7 components of light. He believes what he believes, and we all should believe what we want to believe as well. G_Einstien, your belief is as important as mine, and I welcome it !

I think that this was a great quote of a quote from Ganesh:

I quote Albert Einstein:-
"Religion without Science is lame, Science without Religion is blind."

We should all believe what we want to believe, but true science should try to ignore who created it ; true science should concentrate on discovering on what was created.

Last edited by Chewy (2008-10-10 09:55:01)

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#31 2008-10-10 10:25:52

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

CHewy

As I said before,I do not know the Koran by heart,and I do not express things very well in english.I tried to translate things as better I could to make sense,I'm not fitting the words,I said many times that I may not translate write,but I tried to keep the exac meaning.In albanian we say things like I said previously.

People who knows the Koran by heart,say exaqctly what is says.
But we who do not know it by heart,we say the meaning of these words.It's the same.

I agree with you.There are proof in the Bible that God existe,because our God is also you God.It's just that you have differents thought about it,like the Trinity,3 in 1.

Islam accet that the """original""" Bible was the word of God,but humans while translating it,they changed things in it for own porpous (without offends).
We also believe that Jesus(Isa for muslims) was born in a "divine manner"",but the difference in this point is that,Jesus is not son of God.

God can't have sons!!!!!!!!!!!!
In arabic,a sure (Ihklas) say:
KUL HU WALL-LLAHU EHAD
ALL-LLAHUS SAMED
LEM JELID WE LEM JULED
WE LEM JEKUN L-LEHU KUFUWEN EHAD

wich means:
Say:He is Allah,the One!
Allah,the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable to Him.

The other difference,also is the Trinity.
I can't understand the Trinity.How can 3 be in 1.
I lived in Switzerland for about 10 years and I know in what christians belive,but I can't understand the Trinity!!!

That was at the beginning the differences between muslims and christian.
Now there are more and more.


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#32 2008-10-10 10:30:53

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

PS God put proof in the univers wich  can proof His existence.Every single thing is a proof that God exist.
You have just to stop and to start thinking :''Where does all these thing come from","Why everything is coordinated in an perfect way",example,the moon-the sun,the day=the night,the heat=the cold,the light-the darkness,....


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#33 2008-10-10 10:41:16

Chewy
Member
Registered: 2008-08-07
Posts: 67

Re: Religion with science

Look how far the point has strayed ! I know that your English is off a little, and I accept that. But back to the point I tried to make:

What I am saying is, it doesn't matter that I believe in Christianity's way, Islam's teachings, Judaism, Hindu, or any other belief. Science should be science. Plain, pure and simple.  I, as always, respect everyone's opinion, but don't try to tell me Islam is the only way. It is not. For you it is, but for everyone else, let THEM choose.

Science should be conducted with an open mind is all I ever said.

Last edited by Chewy (2008-10-10 10:41:36)

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#34 2008-10-10 10:42:58

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

If you don't believe what I said at the beginning that the Koran says,read the Koran by your own and you will see that I am not lying.
Or just watch the AhmeT Deedat debate that took place in USA!!!
I respect christian beliefth and all the other religions.


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#35 2008-10-10 10:46:15

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

I agree with you.
Every one should choose.
I agree that science should be pure.
At the beginnig I just told some facts that proof what the Koran says!!!
I respect you opinion.Everyone should choose.I am no trying to tell you that ISlam is the only way,I'm just explaining it!!!

Last edited by G_Einstein (2008-10-10 10:49:47)


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#36 2008-10-10 10:48:45

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

The 34th post in this topic is a reply of 30th,not of one previous.Because while I was writting it,you made a new post.


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#37 2008-10-10 11:05:25

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Religion with science

G_Einstein wrote:

PS God put proof in the univers wich  can proof His existence.Every single thing is a proof that God exist.
You have just to stop and to start thinking :''Where does all these thing come from","Why everything is coordinated in an perfect way",example,the moon-the sun,the day=the night,the heat=the cold,the light-the darkness,....

The thing with that "proof" is that it works for many of the mainstream religions.  In general, your proofs won't convince anyone who doesn't already believe in the Koran.


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

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#38 2008-10-10 11:06:00

Chewy
Member
Registered: 2008-08-07
Posts: 67

Re: Religion with science

G_Einstein,

I am glad that you feel the same about everyone choosing for themselves. And with that, I am done with this subject, because everything I wanted to say has been said. And I hate to repeat. I hate to repeat. tongue

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#39 2008-10-11 03:46:39

All_Is_Number
Member
Registered: 2006-07-10
Posts: 258

Re: Religion with science

G_Einstein wrote:

PS God put proof in the univers wich  can proof His existence.Every single thing is a proof that God exist.
You have just to stop and to start thinking :''Where does all these thing come from","Why everything is coordinated in an perfect way",example,the moon-the sun,the day=the night,the heat=the cold,the light-the darkness,....

These things can all be easily explained scientifically without any requirement of a supernatural being.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "in a perfect way." Are you familiar with the Anthropic Principle? One version, simply stated, says that if the universe was configured differently from how we observe it, then we would not be here to observe it.


You can shear a sheep many times but skin him only once.

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#40 2008-10-11 04:10:08

All_Is_Number
Member
Registered: 2006-07-10
Posts: 258

Re: Religion with science

ganesh wrote:

Isn't it more than a coincidence that white light has seven components, VIBGYOR?

What about infrared, ultraviolet, x-ray, etc.?

If we are only concerned with light visible to the human eye, don't we just need red, green, and blue (RGB)?


You can shear a sheep many times but skin him only once.

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#41 2008-10-11 04:38:38

All_Is_Number
Member
Registered: 2006-07-10
Posts: 258

Re: Religion with science

G_Einstein wrote:

What do you think all about religion(religions)???-I mean monotheistic religion,not polytheistic
To be more precis,the "link" between religion and sciences???

Do you think that what the religions says about the creation of the world is true????

Let's look at the possibility of a supernatural God from a logical perspective. No one has ever been able to provide a testable hypothesis to prove or disprove the existence of god, so science cannot authoritatively state that god doesn't exist. That does not mean that we cannot know anything about such an entity, should it exist.

One characteristic often attributed to god is omniscience, i.e. god is all knowing. Let us assume, for a moment, that there exists an omniscient god, and that god created us. Being omniscient, god knows our future, both as individuals and collectively. That the future is knowable necessarily implies that our future path is predestined, i.e. we cannot have free will.

W cannot rule out an omniscient god, nor can we rule out the possibility that we possess free will. We can, however rule out the possibility that there exists an omniscient god and that we have free will.

Another characteristic often attributed to god is omnipotence, i.e. god is all powerful or has unlimited power. Could god create a rod so strong that god him/her/itself could not bend it? Such a paradox highlights the logical assertion that omnipotence itself is an impossibility. Like infinity, omnipotence is better described as a direction rather than a destination.

Thus, we can logically rule out the possibility of the existence of an omnipotent supernatural being.


You can shear a sheep many times but skin him only once.

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#42 2008-10-11 07:04:28

mathsyperson
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-22
Posts: 4,900

Re: Religion with science

All_Is_Number wrote:

One characteristic often attributed to god is omniscience, i.e. god is all knowing. Let us assume, for a moment, that there exists an omniscient god, and that god created us. Being omniscient, god knows our future, both as individuals and collectively. That the future is knowable necessarily implies that our future path is predestined, i.e. we cannot have free will.

I'd have thought both could happen. Just because God knows what we're going to do doesn't mean we're being made to do it.


Why did the vector cross the road?
It wanted to be normal.

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#43 2008-10-11 07:55:09

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

Yes,mathysperson has right.
God has created humans and let humans decide.
God has created some "life challenges" for everyone,in wich some have passed the "challenge",some not!!!


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#44 2008-10-11 08:13:45

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Religion with science

So at the time of our "conception", God has created us and knows exactly how our life will unfold.  That is to say, that any time after the moment of creation, our destiny has fully been decided.  You really want to call this choice?  Certainly we have the potential to choose, but since the path is already known, we can't stray from this path.  If that's choice to you, then free will is majorly depressing.

God has created humans and let humans decide.

Why?


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

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#45 2008-10-11 08:51:41

G_Einstein
Member
Registered: 2008-08-30
Posts: 124

Re: Religion with science

You'r not understanding.
God knows everything,even the future.
He created everything and knows everything.
He knew what will be your choice,my choise and the choices of others.
He let you decide what to do,but He made some "challenges" to everyone,just that you can ask yourself "Am I in the right way?"
God could not "challenge" us bevause He knows everything,but He has done this and is doing it,just because when the Day when no one will benefite from his richnes and other thing,except his/her good action in his life(the Day of Judgment),so you can not say "You didn't let me try to decide"-"You already knew what I would choose,but you didn't let me!!!Maybe I could decide the right way!!.It is not my fault ..etc....""",and for those people who decided the right way and have accomplished their porpous of life,the Paradise is promised to them.For those that didn't choose and deny His will,Hell is for them.
You know,in the Day of Judgment,Devil will appear,and will speake some things to all peole who followed him .

(WITHOUT OFFENDS TO ANYONE)

he will say ""Hahahahahahah here you are.How fool are you.Coudn't you see that I have deceived you.I have encouraged you to d bad thing and to deny God.Now we will go together and we will be burnt togethjer in Hell!!"

The Devil is the biggest ennemy of the humans.
When Adan was created,God said to all creature to postrate to Adan.All did it,except the Devil.
The Devil said to God "Why should I postrate him,when he was made by "clay" and I was made by fire???" (aperently to him,he was a better creature than human).
He also said to God "Let me live till the Day of Judgment.Till them I will show you that I can make humans believe in me(in devil)(To deny God,make bad-horrible thing etc.) than in YOU(in God)"


But the Mercy of God as no limit.Lot of people will be forgiven!!!


Se Zoti vete e tha me goje,se kombet shuhen permbi dhe,por SHqiperia do te roje,per te,per te luftojme ne.
God said that all nation exincts on the ground,but Albania will survive,for it,for it we are fighting.

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#46 2008-10-11 15:00:28

All_Is_Number
Member
Registered: 2006-07-10
Posts: 258

Re: Religion with science

mathsyperson wrote:

I'd have thought both could happen. Just because God knows what we're going to do doesn't mean we're being made to do it.

If the information from our future exists, as would have to be the case with an omniscient creator, then that implies a lack of free will. We can't really decide things as we go if the knowledge of all of our future decisions is known.


You can shear a sheep many times but skin him only once.

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#47 2008-10-11 15:09:35

Ricky
Moderator
Registered: 2005-12-04
Posts: 3,791

Re: Religion with science

You'r not understanding.

Just because I disagree with you does not mean I don't understand.

God knows everything,even the future.
He created everything and knows everything.
He knew what will be your choice,my choise and the choices of others.

My inability to choose differently from what you claim God already knows negates any appearance of choice.

I also ask you again, G_Einstein:

God has created humans and let humans decide.

Why?


"In the real world, this would be a problem.  But in mathematics, we can just define a place where this problem doesn't exist.  So we'll go ahead and do that now..."

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#48 2008-10-12 00:10:01

mathsyperson
Moderator
Registered: 2005-06-22
Posts: 4,900

Re: Religion with science

All_Is_Number wrote:
mathsyperson wrote:

I'd have thought both could happen. Just because God knows what we're going to do doesn't mean we're being made to do it.

If the information from our future exists, as would have to be the case with an omniscient creator, then that implies a lack of free will. We can't really decide things as we go if the knowledge of all of our future decisions is known.

Why not? The important thing is that we don't know what the future is.
Whenever we make a choice, every option is feasible to us until we actually pick one.


Why did the vector cross the road?
It wanted to be normal.

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#49 2008-10-12 01:43:54

All_Is_Number
Member
Registered: 2006-07-10
Posts: 258

Re: Religion with science

mathsyperson wrote:
All_Is_Number wrote:
mathsyperson wrote:

I'd have thought both could happen. Just because God knows what we're going to do doesn't mean we're being made to do it.

If the information from our future exists, as would have to be the case with an omniscient creator, then that implies a lack of free will. We can't really decide things as we go if the knowledge of all of our future decisions is known.

Why not? The important thing is that we don't know what the future is.
Whenever we make a choice, every option is feasible to us until we actually pick one.

It's the shuffle, not the deal, that determines which cards we get. (Note that game rules typically dictate the order in which cards must be dealt from the deck.) Just because we don't see the value of a particular card until we see that card's face doesn't mean that that particular card did not have that same value prior to us seeing the face.

The only way we can have free will is if the information about our future is unknowable to every possible observer, including god. If that is the case, then god cannot be omniscient. Omniscience implies there is no unknowable information. If god is omniscient, then god's knowledge of our future implies that we have a particular path through life from which we are unable to deviate, even if we, personally, do not see that path. The cards are already shuffled, and we're just waiting for them to be dealt to us.

Our perception of free will does not imply free will. Our own lack of knowledge of the value of the next card does not mean the next card doesn't have a fixed value prior to us seeing it. The existence of an omniscient entity precludes free will. Such an entity would know the value of our next card. Free will implies that the future cannot be knowable. Free will implies that we are able to assign the value of our next card as we obtain it, and prior to that assignment of value, that card had no particular value, as opposed to having a particular value that was unknown to us. I don't think we have reason to believe we could tell the difference between the two scenarios from our own perspective.

Last edited by All_Is_Number (2008-10-12 18:46:16)


You can shear a sheep many times but skin him only once.

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#50 2008-10-12 04:12:47

Sonic the hedgehog
Member
Registered: 2008-09-03
Posts: 52

Re: Religion with science

I like to think that religion and science are balincesdrolleyes


I would not want to be a politician... Let me tell you this: If I was campaigning, and I go against my opponent and he started attacking my character, and I leap over the table and choke him unconscious, would that help my campaign? --Chuck Norris--

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