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Hi bobbym ,
For the original problem if I separate the 60 minutes into 3 periods ,
I get the following results .
(I) 1st period : from 0 min. to 20 min.
Probability of meeting = 1/2 .
Boy's average waiting time = ( 10 + 30 ) / 3 = 40 / 3 min.
(II) 2nd period : from 20 min. to 40 min.
Probability of meeting = 2/3 .
Boy's average waiting time = ( 10 +10 + 10 ) / 3 = 10 min.
(III) 3rd period : from 40 min. to 60 min.
Probability of meeting = 1/2 .
Boy's average waiting time = ( 10 + 10/3 + 10/3 ) / 3 = 50 / 9 min.
Thus the average probability of meeting within the 60 min.
= (1/2 + 2/3 + 1/2 ) / 3 = 5/9 .
The expectation of the boy's waiting time within the 60 min.
= ( 40/3 + 10 + 50/9 ) / 3
= 260 / 27 mins. ( about 9.63 min. )
which is consistent with the result I got in # 8 .
Will your results also be consistent if the 60 min. also be
divided into 3 periods ?
Hi thickhead ,
I get the same probability = 47 / 72 .
But for the expectations , will you recognize that their waiting times
should differ so greatly ? ( about 3 times )
Let us postpone the above problem temporarily and consider the following one . ( A diagram will be much helpful to clarify disputes ! )
Related problem ( I ) :
A boy and a girl have dated to meet at a place . They will arrive there randomly within 60 minutes . The boy is willing to wait for the girl for 30 minutes while the girl is willing to wait for the boy for 20 minutes . Find
(1) the probability of their meeting at the place .
(2) the expectation of the waiting time of the boy .
(3) the expectation of the waiting time of the girl .
Hi thickhead ,
I wonder whether the problem can be solved in your way .
You should take reference to bobbym's diagram . The weight
( area ) of various regions are not fixed thus you can't just take
simple average .
E.g. in (a) from t = 20 to t = 40 , only 1/3 but not half the time
= 0 . Another 1/3 the average time = 20
while the remaining 1/3 the average time = 10 ( ? ) .
Thus the combined average in (a) should 0 + 20 + 10 ) / 3 = 10 .
Hi bobbym ,
No , I don't .
Hi thickhead ,
Please show your procedure .
Hi bobbym ,
I have checked my solution in # 8 for several times but I can't
find where I made a mistake .
Hi bobbym ,
I am confused now ! It seems my answer in # 8 should be correct !
( I had not made any mistake . ) In fact I made a mistake in # 11 .
Please check your work .
Hi bobbym ,
I have found where I made a mistake !
The total volume over the base should be
16000 + 8000 + ( 4000 / 3 ) + 16000
= 40000 + ( 4000 / 3 )
= 124000 / 3
So the expectation of the waiting time of the boy
= 124000 / ( 3 * 60 * 60 )
= 310 / 27 mins .
= 11 + 13 / 27 mins. ( about 11.5 mins )
Hope this answer be correct .
Hi bobbym ,
What result did you get ?
My result may be incorrect for I have not checked it carefully ,
but the procedure should be ok .
To find the expectation of the boy's waiting time , we may use a
3-dimensional diagram with base of bobbym's diagram and the
height at z-axis showing the corresponding waiting time .
(1) For portion ( A ) , it may be re-divided into 3 regions .
(i) region A1 denotes the triangle (20,0) , (40,0) and (40,20)
with height being 20 ( minutes) and area = 20 * 20 * 1/2 = 200 .
Thus its volume = 20 * 200 = 4000 .
(ii) region A2 denotes the square (40,0) , (60,0) , (60,20) and (40,20) with heights being 20 at one side and 0 at the opposite
side . Thus the volume of this prism = 20* 20 * 1/2 * 20 = 4000 .
(iii) region A3 denotes the triangle (40,20), (60,20) and (60,40) .
with the corresponding pyramid with height being 20 .
Thus the volume = 1/3 * 20 * 20 * 20 * 1/2 = 4000 / 3 .
Thus total volume over A will be 4000 + 4000 + (4000 / 3 )
= 8000 + (4000 / 3 )
(2) For portion (B) , since the corresponding height = 0 ,
therefore the corresponding volume also = 0 .
(3) For portion (C) , it may also be divided into 3 regions .
(i) region C1 denotes the rectangle with length ( 0,20) and (40,60) ,
= √2 * 40 . and width = √2 * 10 .
Volume of corresponding prism = 20 * √2 * 10 * 1/2 * √2 * 40
= 8000
(ii) region C2 being a triangle at one side of the rectangle with area
√2 * 10 * √2 * 10 * 1/2 = 100 . Thus volume of the corresponding pyramid = 1/3 * 20 * 100 = 2000 / 3
(iii) region C3 being another symmetric triangle at the other side of
the rectangle . Its area and volume of the corresponding pyramid are
identical to those of region C2 . Thus the corresponding volume is
also 2000 / 3 .
Thus total volume over C will be 8000 + ( 2000 / 3) * 2
= 8000 + (4000 / 3 ) ( same as A .)
(4) For portion D , its area = 40 * 40 * 1/2 = 800 . Height of the
corresponding prism = 20 , thus its volume = 800 * 20 = 16000 .
Thus the total volume over the base = 16000 + 8000 / 3 + 16000
= 32000 + 8000 / 3 = 104000 / 3
So the expectation of the waiting time of the boy
= 104000 / ( 3 * 60 * 60 )
= 260 / 27 mins .
= 9 + 17/ 27 mins . ( about 9.63 mins . )
Hi bobbym ,
Yes , that's the case .
Hi bobbym ,
You are right . The maximum waiting time for the boy is 20 mins .
He will left immediately after 20 mins . even he knows that the girl will
come 8 mins. later .
Thanks bobbym ,
Your answer is correct !
Now let us ask another question : What will be the expectation of the
waiting time of any one of them , say the boy ?
Your diagram may be divided into 3 portions . If the blue portion
is bisected by the diagonal ( the curve y = x ) then it becomes 4
portions .
Let A , B , C and D denote the 4 portions one by one from the
south - east triangle to the north - west one .
Let the boy arrives at x minutes and the girl arrives at y minutes .
For A , x - y ≥ 20 . The boy does not see the girl , but still expecting she will come latter . He will wait for min ( 20 , 60-x ) minutes .
For B , x - y ≤ 20 , the boy need not wait , i.e. he will wait for 0 minute .
For C , y - x ≤ 20 , the boy will wait for y-x minutes .
For D , y - x ≥ 20 , the boy will keep waiting for 20 minutes .
How should we continue ?
A boy and a girl have dated to meet at a place .
They will arrive there randomly within 60 minutes
and are willing to wait for one another for 20 mins.
What is the probability of their meeting at the place?
( Solution illustrated with a diagram will be appreciated .)
Related Problem (2)
51 servants lined up a queue . Boss A chose randomly 40
consecutive of them and paid each 3 dollars . Boss B chose
randomly 35 consecutive of them and paid each 2 dollars .
Boss C chose randomly 19 consecutive of them and paid
each 1 dollar .If a servant was chosen randomly from
the 51 , find the probability that he received 6 dollars .
Solution :
Let a ∩ b ∩c denotes the total no. of times all the servants
receiving money from both Boss A , B and C at the same time .
Thus a ∩ b ∩c = ∑ { min ( 40 , 12 , r , 52-r )
* min ( 35 , 17 , r , 52-r )
* min ( 19 , 33 , r , 52-r ) }
= ∑ { min ( 12 , r , 52-r )
* min ( 17 , r , 52-r )
* min ( 19 , r , 52-r ) }
where r varies from 1 to 51
As 51 is an odd no ,the above sum may be divided into 3 parts .
(1) For r varies from 1 to [ 51/2 ] = 25 .
(2) For r to be 26 .
(3) For r varies from 27 to 51 .( i.e. 52-r varies from
25 to 1 . Thus the value of (3) = the value of (1) .)
For (1) , r varies from 1 to 25 , i.e. 52-r varies from 51 to 27 ,
thus min ( 12 , r , 52-r ) = min ( 12 , r ) ,
similarly, min ( 17 , r , 52-r ) = min ( 17 , r )
and min ( 19 , r , 52-r ) = min ( 19 , r )
Since min ( 12 , r ) * min ( 17 , r ) * min ( 19 , r )
= min ( 12*17*19 , 12*17*r , 12*r*19 , 12*r*r ,
r*17*19 , r*17*r , r*r*19 , r*r*r )
= min ( 12*17*19 , 12*17*r ,12* r^2 , r^3 )
Thus value of (1) = ∑{min ( 12*17*19 , 12*17*r ,12* r^2 , r^3 ) }
( where r varies from 1 to 25 .)
Since 12*17*19 = 12*17*r ⇒ r = 19 ,
12*17*r = 12* r^2 ⇒ r = 17 ,
12* r^2 = r^3 ⇒ r = 12 .
Thus ( i ) for r from 1 to 12 ,
∑{min ( 12*17*19 , 12*17*r ,12* r^2 , r^3 ) }
= ∑ r^3
= 1^3 + 2^3 + ... + 12^3
= 1/4 * 12^2 * 13^2
= 6084
( ii ) For r from 13 to 17 ,
∑{min ( 12*17*19 , 12*17*r ,12* r^2 , r^3 ) }
= ∑ 12* r^2
= 12 * (13^2 + 14^2 + 15^2 + 16^2 + 17^2 )
= 12 * ( 1785 - 650 )
= 13620
( iii ) For r from 18 to 19 ,
∑{min ( 12*17*19 , 12*17*r ,12* r^2 , r^3 ) }
= ∑ 12* 17 * r
= 12* 17 *18 + 12* 17 * 19
= 6348
( iv ) For r from 20 to 25 ,
∑{min ( 12*17*19 , 12*17*r ,12* r^2 , r^3 ) }
= ∑12*17*19
= 12*17*19 * 6
= 23256
Therefore the total sum of Part (1)
= 6084 + 13620 + 6348 + 23256
= 49308
For Part (2) , the value = 12 *17*19 = 3876
While the total sum of Part (3) also = 49308
Therefore a ∩ b ∩c = 49308 + 3876 + 49308 = 102492
So P = 102492 / 51 * 12 * 17 * 33
= 949 / 3179 ( about 0.3 )
Related Problem (1)
Let n = 100 , a = 50 , b = 30 , find P .
Solution :
(1st method ) : ( according to # 8 and # 19 )
Let a ∩ b denotes the total no. of times all the servants receiving money from both Boss A and Boss B at the same time .
Then a ∩ b consists of 2 parts :
(Part 1) min ( a,b) * [ max(a, b ) - min( a, b) + 1 ] * [ n - max(a,b) +1]
= 30 * 21 * 51 = 32130
(Part 2) 2 * { 29 * 50 = 29 * ( 29 + 21 ) = 29 ^2 + 29 * 21
+ 28 * 49 = 28 * ( 28 + 21) = 28 ^2 + 28 * 21
+ 27 * 48 = 27 * ( 27 + 21) = 27 ^2 + 27 * 21
+ ................= ...........................= ...........................
+ 1 * 22 = 1 * ( 1 + 21) = 1 ^2 + 1 * 21 }
Since 29^2 + 28^2 + 27^2 + .............. + 1^2
= 29 * 30 * 59 / 6 = 8555 .
while 29* 21 + 28* 21 + 27* 21 + ............+ 1 * 21
= 30 * 21 * 29 / 2 = 9135 .
Thus sum of Part 2 = 2 * { 8555 + 9135 } = 2 * 17690 = 35380
Thus a ∩ b = 32130 + 35380 = 67510
So P = 67510 / 100 * 51 * 71
= 6751 / 36210 ( about 0.18 )
quite near to 41 / 240 ( about 0.17 )
( 2nd method ) ( according to # 9 , # 11 and # 13 )
Since the value in k-th row and r-th column in the table may be represented by min ( k , n-k+1 , r , n-r+1 ) where r varies from 1 to n .
Thus a ∩ b = ∑ { min ( 50 , 51 , r , 101-r )
* min ( 30 , 71 , r , 101-r ) }
= ∑ { min ( r , 101-r )
* min ( 30 , r , 101-r ) }
where r varies from 1 to 100 .
(1) For r ≤ 30 ,sum of the products will be ∑ r * r =∑ r^2 .
(2) For r from 31 to 50 , sum of the products will be
∑ r * 30
(3) For r from 51 to 100 (i.e. 101 - r will be from 50 to 1), sum of the products will be ∑ (101 - r) * min ( 30, 101-r )
= ∑ min [ (101 - r) * 30 , (101 - r) ^2 ]
For (1) ∑ r^2 = 1^2 + 2^2 + ... + 30^2
= 30* 31* 61 / 6 = 9455
For (2) ∑ r * 30 = 31 * 30 + 32*30 + ...+ 50*30
= 81 * 30 * 20 / 2
= 24300
For (3) , 30 = 101-r ⇒ r = 71 ,
( i ) for r from 51 to 70 ,( i.e. 101-r from 50 to 31 )
min (30, 101-r ) = 30 ,
Sum of this portion will be ∑ [ (101 - r) * 30 ]
= 50*30 + 49*30 + .... + 31*30 = 81 * 30 * 20 / 2
= 24300
( ii ) For r from 71 to 100 ,( i.e. 101-r from 30 to 1 ) ,
min ( 30, 101-r ) = 101 - r ,
Sum of this portion will be ∑ (101 - r) ^2
= 30^2 + 29^2 + ... + 1^2
= 30 * 31 * 61 / 6 = 9455
Thus sum of ( 3 ) = 24300 + 9455 = 33755
Thus a ∩ b = 9455 + 24300 + 24300 + 9455
= 67510
So P = 67510 / 100 * 51 * 71
= 6751 / 36210 ( same as 1st method )
If n is even and a = b = n/2 , from # 9 it can be found that
P = [1^2 + 2^ 2 + ...( n/2 )^2] * 2 / [ n *( n/2 +1 ) * ( n/2 +1 ) ]
In fact there is already a formula to calculate the sum of
consecutive squares . ( Square pyramid numbers ) which states that :
1^2 + 2^2 + ... + n^2 = n*(n+1)*(2*n+1)/6.
Thus P = n/2 * ( n/2 +1 ) * ( n + 1) / [3 * n *( n/2 +1 ) * ( n/2 +1 ) ]
= ( n+1) / 3 * 2 * ( n/2 +1 )
= ( n+1) / 3 ( n + 2 ) = ( n+1) / 3 ( n + 1) + 3
as in # 21 .
It can be observed ( from limited no. of examples ) that
(1) If n is even , and a = b = n/2 , then P = n+1 / 3 (n+1) + 3 ;
(2) If n is odd , and a = ( n-1 ) / 2 , while b = ( n+1 ) / 2 , ( a and b being conjugate ) , then P = n-1 / 3 ( n-1 ) + 3 = n-1 / 3n .
For example , let n = 20 , a = b = 10 , then P = 21 / 63 + 3 = 21 / 66 = 7/ 22 .
If the answer is correct , then by multiplied 7/ 22 by n*(n-a+1)* (n-b+1)
= 7 / 22 * 20 * 11 * 11
= 770 which should = 10 * 1 * 11 +
2 * { 9 * 10 + 8 * 9 + 7 * 8 ...... + 1 * 2 } ,
i.e. 9 * 10 + 8 * 9 + 7 * 8 ...... + 1 * 2 = ( 770 - 110 ) / 2 = 330 .
Thus the sum of a series of x * (x + 1 ) ( and then x^2 ) can be found in this way without adding the products 1 by 1 .
Hi thickhead ,
It seems that the rule of conjugates really holds when the value a
is replaced by n-a+1 , then the corresponding P will be multiplied by
n-a+1 / a .
In general , let n be the total no. of servants while a and b be the nos of servants chosen by Boss A and Boss B respectively . A table with n-a+1 rows and n-b+1 columns in the form like the one in # 8 may be constructed with the value of the term in k-th row and r-th column of the table expressed as
min { a , b , max [ 0 , min ( r-k+min (a,b) , k-r+max(a,b) ] }
where k varies from 1 to n-a+1 and r varies from 1 to n-b+1 .
( This is for the case that a ≥b , the result will be the same for
a ≤b just by exchanging the rows with columns .)
The table may be divided into 3 portions , the 1st portion will be the
parallelogram in the middle , from r = k to r = k + max(a, b ) - min( a, b)
which are all filled with the value min (a , b) .
For r = k , value of each term in the corresponding inclined " diagonal " will be fixed to be min { a , b , max[ 0 , min ( min (a,b) , max (a,b)) ] } = min (a ,b ) and there are [n - max(a,b) +1 ] terms .
For r = k + max(a, b ) - min( a, b) ,
each term will be min { a, b, max [ 0 , min ( max(a,b) , min(a,b) )]}
also = min (a b) and there are also [n - max(a,b) +1 ] terms .
Thus there are totally [ max(a, b ) - min( a, b) + 1 ] *[ n - max(a,b) +1]
such terms with value min(a,b) .
The remaining portion of the table consists of 2 identical triangles
with base all with value [ min(a,b) - 1 ], and there are [ n- max(a,b) ] terms .
Both values will be descending towards the vertex of the triangle .
It will be stopped at either one value = 1 .
Thus the sum of the total values in the 1st portion ( the parallelogram )
will be min (a,b) * [ max(a, b ) - min( a, b) + 1 ] * [ n - max(a,b) +1] .
While the sum of values in the 2 triangles will be
2 * { [ min(a,b) - 1 ] * [ n- max(a,b) ]
+ [ min(a,b) - 2 ] * [ n- max(a,b) - 1]
+ .........................* ......................... } ( stop when either 1 side = 1 )
Thus the total sum of values in the whole table will be the sum of
the 2 portions .
Divided this value by n * (n-a+1) * (n-b+1 ) , the require probability
will be obtained .
( continued from # 8 )
The value of the term in k-th row and r-th column of the table in
# 8 can be expressed as min [ 3 , max ( 0 , r-k+3 ) , max ( 0, k-r+5)].
= min { 3 , max [ 0 , min ( r-k+3 , k-r+5 ) ] }
where k varies from 1 to 6 and r varies from 1 to 8 .
Let us turn the table shown in # 8 anti-clockwisely by 45 ° with
the point ( 1, 8 ) at the top and the point (6, 1) at the bottom ,
then we separate the table into 3 parts . ( This is only true for
min (a,b) , i.e 3 to be odd . )
The 1st part is the triangular shape with ( 1,8 ) as vertex and the
base will be the line joining (1,3) and (6,8) .
The 2nd part consists of only 1 row by joining (1,2) and ( 6,7) .
( For min (a,b) to be an even no . , the 2nd part will be void . )
The 3rd part is the inverse triangle with the base formed by
joining (1,1) and (6,6) while with (6,1) as vertex . The items
inside are exactly the same with the 1st part .
There are min ( 10-5+1 , 10-3+1 ) = 6 items in each side of the
upper triangle . ( also for the lower inverse one .) The base ( lowest
row ) are filled with the value 3 and there are 6 such 3 ' s .
The upper row are all 2 and there are 5 such 2's . The values are
descending by 1 for each upper row , until the row are all 1's and
there are 12 - 5 - 3 = 4 of them . ( The other rows filled with all
0 's will be neglected . )
Thus the sum of the all values in each triangle will be
( 3 * 6 + 2 * 5 + 1 * 4 ) = 32 , and 2 * 32 = 64 for the 2 triangles , together with the row between them with sum = 3 * 6 = 18 ,
the total sum in the table = 82 .
Divided 82 by 10 * 6 * 8 , we get P = 41/240 .
If a graph of y = min { ab , min (a , b) r , r^2 } is drawn it can be found
that the curve can be divided into 3 parts .
The 1st part will be for r from 1 to min (a , b) where y = r^2 since when
r = min (a,b) , y = min { min (a,b) * max(a,b) , min (a,b) min(a,b) ,min(a,b)^2 }
= r^2 = 1^2 + 2^2 .....+ min(a,b)^2 . ( totally min(a,b) terms)
( Is there any formula to calculate the sum of squares ? )
The 2nd part will be for r from min(a,b) + 1 to max (a,b) where
y = min(a,b) * r since when r = max(a,b) ,
y = min { min(a,b) * max(a,b) , min(a,b) * max(a,b) , max(a,b) ^2 } =
min(a,b) * r = min(a,b)*[ min(a,b) +1] + ... min(a,b)* max(a,b)
(totally max(a,b)- min(a,b) terms )
Thus the sum of the 2nd part will be
min(a,b)* (a+b+1)/2 * {max(a,b)- min(a,b)}
The 3rd part will be for r from max(a,b) +1 to [ n/2] where
y= ab ( being a constant ) and there are totally [ n/2] -max(a,b)
terms . Thus the sum of the 3rd part will be
ab * {[ n/2] -max(a,b) }
The above 3 parts will all exist only if max(a,b) +1 ≤ [ n/2] ,
if max(a,b) ≥[ n/2] ≥ min(a,b) , then only part 1 and part 2 will exist . If [ n/2] ≤ min(a,b) , then only part 1 will exist .
For example , let n = 11 , a = 5 and b = 3 ; then the total sum
= 2 * { 1+4+9 + 27 + 0 } + 15
= 2 * 41 + 15
= 97
Since ( n-a+1 ) * (n-b+1 ) * n = 7 * 9 * 11 ,
therefore P = 97/ 693 ( about 0.14 )
Thus if n is even :
Sum of corresponding products = 2* {∑ min ( ab , min (a,b) r , r^2 ) }
for r from 1 to n/2 .
If n is odd :
Sum of corresponding products = 2* {∑ min ( ab , min (a,b) r , r^2 ) } + ab
for r from 1 to [ n/2] .
No matter n is even or odd , a general formula for the sum may be expressed as :
2* {∑ min ( ab , min (a,b) r , r^2 ) } + 2 { n/2 - [ n/2] } * ab
for r from 1 to [ n/2] .
as the term 2 { n/2 - [ n/2] } will = 0 if n is even , and = 1 if n is odd since then n/2 = [ n/2] + 1/2 .
Divided the sum by ( n-a+1 ) * (n-b+1 ) * n , the required probability will be obtained
In general , let n be the total no. of servants being an
even no ., sum of the corresponding products will be
2* ∑[ min ( ab , ar , br , r^2 ) ] or 2* ∑[ min ( ab , min (a,b) r , r^2 ) ]
for r from 1 to n/2 .
Then the required probability will be
2* ∑[ min ( ab , min (a,b) r , r^2 ) ] / n * (n-a+1) *( n-b +1)
However , the value of min ( ab , ar , br , r^2 ) still have to be
calculated 1 by 1 for each value of r .
For n to be an odd no. ,say 11 , the value in k-th row and r-th
column is still min ( k , n+1-k , r , n+1-r ) , i.e. min ( k , 12-k , r , 12-r ) . For k = n+1-k = r = n+1-r , the expression will = n+1/ 2 being the unique greatest value in the table .
In this case the whole table will be symmetric vertically for k from 1 to [ n/2 ] ( the greatest integer contained in n/2 ) ( which = n-1 /2 ) with k from n+1 - [ n/2 ] ( = [ n/2 ] + 2 ) to n . For k = [ n/2 ] + 1 it will be unique .
The table will also be symmetric horizontally for r from 1 to [ n/2] ( or
n-1 /2 ) with r from [ n/2 ]+2 to n . For r = [ n/2 ] + 1 it will be unique .
Then the sum of product of min ( a, n+1-a , r , n+1-r ) and
min ( b , n+1-b , r ,n+1-r ) , may be simplified to ∑ min ( a, r ,n+1-r ) * min ( b , r ,n+1-r ) . where r varies from 1 to n .
It may also be simplified to 2 * {∑ min ( a , r ) * min ( b , r) } + a*b ( where r varies from 1 to n-1 /2 .) The term min ( a , r ) * min ( b , r) may also be expressed as
min ( ab , ar , br , r^2 )