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#276 Re: Exercises » Area of a Triangle » 2023-11-22 07:53:48

Bob wrote:

hi KerimF

Apologies for not responding to this sooner.  I had an idea when I read your first post but it has knocked around in my brain for some days before immerging as a method.  It's got lots of steps and, if you wanted an actual formula, it could be done but it would be messy.  Instead I'll outline an algorithm that will work.

If you just knew the three angles you could draw a triangle with those.  But there are an infinite number of such triangles, all similar in shape, each scalable to scale up its size, but only one will have the right perimeter.

There's a formula, called Heron's formula after it's discoverer, that will calculate the area of a triangle if you know its perimeter. The semi perimeter = P/2 , sidea a, b, and c, and the formula is:

This Wiki page has an article about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heron%27s_formula  but there P already stands for the semi perimeter.

So how to make use of this.

Choose a random value for a; I'll call it p.

You can then use the sine rule to work out the other two sides, q and r.

Work out P' the perimeter of this triangle by P' = p + q + r

If P' = P then you're done because you had a really lucky choice for a. Unlikely though. But what you have got is the sides of a similar triangle that is either a scaled down or scaled up version of the correct triangle.

So you can work out the scale factor P/P' for converting your triangle to the correct one.

So now you know a, b, and c and so can proceed with Heron's formula.

Bob

Very nice work, thank you.
As expected, there are more than one way to solve it.

Here is how I did it:
(back from step 1, to show below the complete solution)

The area's formula of a triangle ABC is:
S = base * height / 2

As a start, I chose the base AB. In this case:
height = CM (from C to AB, M on AB)
And,
S = AB * CM / 2

Now, we have two right triangles ACM and BCM (right angle at M)
From them, let us find:
AB = f(CM,A,B)

In the triangle ACM
AM = CM/tan(A)

And, in the triangle BCM
MB = CM/tan(B)

So AB=f(CM,A,B) is:
AB = AM+MB = CM*[1/tan(A) + 1/tan(B)]

===

Again, in the triangle ACM
AC=CM/sin(A)

And, in the triangle BCM
BC=CM/sin(B)

So,
P = AB+AC+BC = CM*[1/tan(A)+1/tan(B)+1/sin(A)+1/sin(B)]
P = CM*[cos(A)/sin(A)+cos(B)/sin(B)+1/sin(A)+1/sin(B)]
P = CM*{[1+cos(A)]/sin(A) + [1+cos(B)]/sin(B)}

===

Now, it is time to substitude CM with S from the area's formula:
S=AB*CM/2 ==> CM=2*S/AB

P = 2*S/AB*{[1+cos(A)]/sin(A) + [1+cos(B)]/sin(B)}
And we get:
AB = 2*S/P*{[1+cos(A)]/sin(A) + [1+cos(B)]/sin(B)}

===

Similarly, we can say:
AC = 2*S/P*{[1+cos(A)]/sin(A) + [1+cos(C)]/sin(C)}
CB = 2*S/P*{[1+cos(C)]/sin(C) + [1+cos(B)]/sin(B)}

===

By adding the above three formulas of AB, AC and CB
P = AB+AC+CB = 2*S/P*{2*[1+cos(A)]/sin(A) + 2*[1+cos(B)]/sin(B) + 2*[1+cos(C)]/sin(C)}
P = 4*S/P*{[1+cos(A)]/sin(A) + [1+cos(B)]/sin(B) + [1+cos(C)]/sin(C)}

And the required formula/function is:
S = f(P,A,B,C) = P^2 / {[1+cos(A)]/sin(A) + [1+cos(B)]/sin(B) + [1+cos(C)]/sin(C)} / 4

Kerim

#277 Re: Exercises » Area of a Triangle » 2023-11-21 00:56:20

There may be more than one way to solve it.

My first step was to write the area's formula of a triangle ABC.
S = base * height / 2
I chose:
base = AB
height = CM (from C to AB, M on AB)
So,
S = AB * CM / 2

Now, we have two rectangular triangles ACM and BCM (or CMA and CMB, if you like).
The second step was to find at its end:
AB = f(CM,A,B)

...

#278 Re: Exercises » Area of a Triangle » 2023-11-20 10:54:09

amnkb wrote:
KerimF wrote:

The perimeter (P) of a triangle ABC is known, also its three angles (A), (B) and (C).
Find its surface (S).
S = f(P, A, B, C)

a triangle is 2D
surface is 3D
do you maybe mean 'area'?

Sorry, I was French educated at school. You are right, I meant by surface the area of the triangle.

#279 Exercises » Area of a Triangle » 2023-11-20 09:44:19

KerimF
Replies: 6

The perimeter (P) of a triangle ABC is known, also its three angles (A), (B) and (C).
Find its area (S).
S = f(P, A, B, C)

#280 Re: Help Me ! » Rearranging formulae » 2023-11-20 09:37:26

amnkb wrote:

Step 1
Mult.both sides by 4+t;
p(4+t)=3-2t

Step 1
Mult.both sides by 4+t, assuming 4+t≠0;
p(4+t)=3-2t

#281 Re: Help Me ! » Radicand Comes Out » 2023-11-18 21:43:06

amnkb wrote:
KerimF wrote:

May I add...

sqrt{(a + b)^2} = ±(a + b)

like sqrt{(1 + 2)^2} = sqrt(9) = ±3

actually, sqaure root is defined to be the positive answer

Based on this definition, you mentioned, you are totally right.

I just added what I know because in my designs, if I ended up with the equation:
x^2 - 9 = 0 
X^2 = 9
x = sqrt(9) = ±3
I had to consider both results.

But in case you believe that I do wrong, and I have to ignore always the negative result, please accept my apology.

#282 Re: Help Me ! » Real Solutions of the Quadratic Equation...B » 2023-11-17 17:41:00

sologuitar wrote:

When you say "a solution", do you mean there are more solutions?

As you know, in general, a quadratic equation has two roots (real or complex) if (b^2 - 4ac) ≠ 0. We may say that 'r' is one of them (for known a, b and c).

#283 Re: Help Me ! » Real Solutions of the Quadratic Equation...A » 2023-11-17 17:21:26

sologuitar wrote:

How did you know what to do? What data in the application led you to work out the problem as you did?

As you know, to compare two solutions, one just needs to find each of them first.

But in the case of someone who didn't hear yet the solution (root’s formula) of a quadratic equation, the proof will be much longer.

For instance, I forgot the math trick by which the root’s formula was found (when I was at school about 60 years ago), so now I needed to search “How to find the quadratic equation formula” to remember it sad

#284 Re: Help Me ! » Tricky or Lengthy Word Problems » 2023-11-17 16:31:36

May I add...

Necessity is the mother of invention... or innovation.
In other words, even the most intelligent human won't solve a problem if he is not interested in doing it.

Based on my own observations, I doubt a serious person cannot find a practical solution, directly or indirectly, of a project that he needed really in his personal life, though it may take him a day, a week, a month, a year, or even many decades to find it.

#285 Re: Help Me ! » Radicand Comes Out » 2023-11-17 16:01:04

May I add...

sqrt{(a + b)^2} = ±(a + b)

like sqrt{(1 + 2)^2} = sqrt(9) = ±3

#286 Re: Help Me ! » Square Root Raised to Square Root » 2023-11-17 15:46:09

May I add...

The main difficulty in solving a practical problem is to find the formulas/equations which will lead, usually by using math tricks, to the end values to be applied for a certain project.

We are fortunate now that, for solving an equation or formula, there are many numerical tools (likely PC programs), to choose from, which help us find the numerical answer(s) we are looking for.

For instance, solving a new problem whose formulas/equations are not known yet by humans, even the most intelligent robot cannot do it. Otherwise, humans will be no more needed in research departments smile

#287 Re: Help Me ! » Find a Function from Coordinates » 2023-11-16 15:46:42

So far, it seems there is no continuous function for f(x) whose curve could be made somehow close to the breaker's one.

I guess, a practical solution in this timing case could be the use of a piece-wise function.

Regards,
Kerim

#288 Re: Help Me ! » Find a Function from Coordinates » 2023-11-16 00:21:42

Bob wrote:

hi KerimF

I plotted x against LOG(y) in Excel and it looks like a negative power exponential. I've got to go out now so I'll come back later and, if needed, start trying an exact fit.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Thank you for replying.
My Excel is very old (2007) and its options of trendline are somehow restricted.
I try to figure out the possible general form of f(x) in order to calculate its parameters for this special graph.

Kerim

#289 Re: Help Me ! » Find a Function from Coordinates » 2023-11-15 20:12:48

I am 74. Lately, I write an MCU code (actually for ATmega8). And one of its algorithms is about emulating the response of a mechanical breaker (to cut a current when overload).

I thought I may gain time in asking for help. But I also understand that it may not be an easy exercise to most members.

For instance, I used to ask for technical help to also stimulate my brain's cells while some others may think with me about it (much like creating a virtual race... in which I may be the only racer).

So far, it is somehow obvious that f(x) here should have (x-1) in its denominator. And it should have two parameters, in the least, whose values let its graph be close to the breaker's response one.

I will be back when I will find a good f(x), unless someone will do it faster than me.

Good luck

#290 Help Me ! » Find a Function from Coordinates » 2023-11-15 09:44:51

KerimF
Replies: 4

The relation between the break time in seconds of an electrical breaker, y=brkTime, and the over-current ratio, x=I_real/I_nominal, is given by the following 6 points (x,y):
(1.03 , 3600)
(1.11 , 1000)
(1.35 , 100 )
(2.07 , 10)
(4.16 , 1)
(7.0 , 0.39)

Is it possible to find an analytical function, y=f(x), whose curve could be close to the one given above?
Thank you.

#291 Re: Puzzles and Games » Transporting fuel » 2018-10-03 13:08:17

The answer is:
The maximum quantity of fuel that could be delivered at the second city is 2400 litres.

#292 Re: Dark Discussions at Cafe Infinity » Logical thinking of Humans » 2018-08-27 14:41:13

Based on the simple example I gave, you are totally right.

After all, it is not a crime if someone believes that his logic should be (or represents) the universal one to all humans smile
And a person is free to learn from some others what could be referred to as being a universal logic by which he will build and update his set of knowledge.

But, on my side, I won't be surprised anytime I meet a person who analyses things by a totally different logic of mine, if not opposing.
And the time I stop trusting my own logic more than of anyone else I would simply become a sheep among sheep smile

#293 Re: Dark Discussions at Cafe Infinity » The Meaning Of Life Is In The Dictionary! :) » 2018-08-27 13:17:52

I agree on what you said because it also describes reality as seen by many people.

But in my case and since my graduation, it was (still is) a shame for me if I have to work by following directions of some others (getting a good job as you said). I had no choice but to start a small business (with a capital of about $100) as a private designer of electronic controllers that the local consumers/market may need in every period of time.

It happens that the process of thinking (to discover new things; scientific and else) gives my body all pleasure it needs. So I, unlike all persons I knew, didn't have a real interest in having sexual pleasure with anyone. Naturally and since I also wasn't interested in being rich (hence not running after money and s_x), my family wasn't proud at all of me smile Even my uncle, a Catholic priest living in Paris, couldn't imagine that it is possible for a person to live without s_x!

For instance, the main reason for which it is out of question for me to have a wife is that marriage needs a third party that represents a certain authority in order to confirming it. In other words, in the conventional marriage, true love and trust come second (at best wink ). After all, true love and trust can exist between two real free/independent persons only who are usually rare in the world wink I personally cannot live and/or work with another if our relation has to be supervised by a law (a formal contract for example).

My first crucial question in my life (when I was teen and which I had to answer) was "What is the end purpose of being forced to exist (me), though temporarily, in this universe?". Only after I discovered the answer I have had a rather stable balanced life with myself and all others; no matter if one's role is to play the friend or enemy.

#294 Re: Dark Discussions at Cafe Infinity » The Meaning Of Life Is In The Dictionary! :) » 2018-08-27 05:45:23

Interesting study!

It describes, though from one angle only, how the instructions (rather very complex), that are embedded already in the living cells by the Maker, guide each human in playing the role(s) for which he is created.

I said "from one angle" because "doing good things" is a relative matter and depends on the complete nature of which a person is made.
To be clearer, despite the big differences among the persons I have met, no one seems (in private personal conversations) not being proud of himself about what he/she believes and does in general.

And the common point to most of them is following the majority that lives around them. After all, this is typical to all common peoples who live in different regions in the world... in order to be on the safe side smile

#295 Re: Dark Discussions at Cafe Infinity » Logical thinking of Humans » 2018-08-27 04:56:50

Primenumbers wrote:

I thought the tool of logic was universal?

What are you saying then? You use the existence of things that don’t exist to prove things that do exist?

How does that work?

If A then B
No A
Therefore B

Wouldn’t your reasoning just be false then?

.........It’s very interesting.

Sorry for not being clear about how using certain non-existent (abstract) objects could help know better some real things.

To simplify solving the equations of an electronic filter for example, I use complex numbers (real + imaginary) to model its real elements (resistors, capacitors... etc.). If the solution is right, all deduced results (giving the values of the real elements) will end up to be real numbers only (the imaginary numbers were just a temporary tool as the temporary wooden structure to build a concrete house).
Of course, one could solve such problems without using the notion of the imaginary number SQRT(-1), but the work would be somehow harder to do.

To me in the least, defining something not real doesn't imply - for sure - it cannot be useful in feeding better one's real knowledge in some respects.

But, concerning the above example, let us be rational. Millions (if not billions) of people around the world don't need including the concept of this imaginary SQRT(-1) in their logical reasoning.

I mean, if a "certain" concept (notion) of an unreal thing doesn't interest many rational intelligent people in the world, this doesn't mean it has to be so to all other rational intelligent humans smile

Sorry, I try my best not to go further since here is a math forum.

#296 Re: Help Me ! » Does 1 = .999...? » 2018-08-26 00:56:59

Usually, mathematics is a tool, not a target.
For example, if I get a number in the range {9K5 to 10K5} for the value of a resistor, I would simply select the 10K resistor. Obviously, the designed circuit should be made to work properly even if the exact value of the resistor in use is also a bit outside this range.

On the other hand, solving math problems could be a target if it is for fun... as testing the level of one's logic (logical reasoning).

#297 Re: Puzzles and Games » Transporting fuel » 2018-08-13 20:20:02

I heard of this problem in early 80’s from a person returning from France. He told me that it was a question in a context TV show (French) that couldn’t get an answer. After about 40 years, I am not sure what its original numbers were but I still remember how I solved it. Its few equations have each one variable (unknown) of the first degree.

For instance, when I was a student and before starting a math exam, I noticed a colleague in my classroom trying, in vain, to solve an exercise that was expected to be given in the exam. I thought that helping him is a good thing. So I reminded him the basic hint by which the exercise in question could be solved rather easily. He looked at me and said: “Who asked you for help? I bet you are happy now for proving you are smarter than I”. So I apologized, but since then I fully understood the famous saying “Ask and you will be given” which also means “Give if you are asked... otherwise don’t blame the other side for any unexpected reaction” wink

#299 Re: Jai Ganesh's Puzzles » Mensuration » 2018-08-11 18:26:39

M #385

If the perimeters are equal

Ss = Sc * π / 4

where:
Ss = the area of the square field
Sc = the area of the circular field

Therefore:
Ss= 3850 * (22/7) / 4 = 3025 square meters

#300 Puzzles and Games » Transporting fuel » 2018-08-11 05:42:09

KerimF
Replies: 2

A city has 13,500 litres of fuel in excess to be sent to another city in need at a distance of 450 miles.
The capacity of the available transport tank is 4500 litres and it consumes 10 litres/mile.
It is possible to use fuel reservoirs at many locations on the road as necessary.

The question is:
What is the maximum quantity of fuel that could be delivered at the second city?

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